Zero Distortion: Tango Time

DaveyF

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Aug 1, 2010
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Talking about tubes. Imo buying a "very expensive" tube gear should not involve further tube rolling unless it is for a maintenance purpose. The designer should have extensively tested his gear with different tubes to find "the" sound for that equipment. When I hear people say this crazy expensive amp or that very expensive phono has to roll tube to sound excellent I wonder why the crazy money one paid for that equipment didnt already cover for the tubes. I am talking for example a super expensive gear like Kondo Kagura.

Tang :)
Tango, there are some very good reasons why most manufacturers don’t actually include the very best tubes for their products...and the consumer has to roll tubes to get the best sound. One of the reasons is that the supply of many of the NOS tubes can be spotty. Remembering that the manufacturer has to not only meet demand, but also has to stand behind the product for some amount of warranty, and I think one can see why most tube manufacturers don’t include the NOS and more esoteric tube with their gear as standard.
Add to that the additional cost of the esoteric NOS tube, and I think we have our answer as to why these types of tube are not standard.
 
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bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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Talking about tubes. Imo buying a "very expensive" tube gear should not involve further tube rolling unless it is for a maintenance purpose. The designer should have extensively tested his gear with different tubes to find "the" sound for that equipment. When I hear people say this crazy expensive amp or that very expensive phono has to roll tube to sound excellent I wonder why the crazy money one paid for that equipment didnt already cover for the tubes. I am talking for example a super expensive gear like Kondo Kagura.

Tang :)
Apart from the fact that it is not possible to voice and price an equipment with NOS valve (the price of which will the change every time you sell your product to a customer) you should have bought a table voiced to one arm and cart.
 

VinylSavor

Active Member
May 15, 2018
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Talking about tubes. Imo buying a "very expensive" tube gear should not involve further tube rolling unless it is for a maintenance purpose. The designer should have extensively tested his gear with different tubes to find "the" sound for that equipment. When I hear people say this crazy expensive amp or that very expensive phono has to roll tube to sound excellent I wonder why the crazy money one paid for that equipment didnt already cover for the tubes. I am talking for example a super expensive gear like Kondo Kagura.

Tang :)
I agree with Tang on this one. Amps can be designed such that tube rolling does not change the overall sound character too much as long as the tubes are in good condition. Tube rolling should not be a necessity to get the full sound potential, rather a means to play and get some subtle changes

best regards

Thomas
 

VinylSavor

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May 15, 2018
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Apart from the fact that it is not possible to voice and price an equipment with NOS valve (the price of which will the change every time you sell your product to a customer) you should have bought a table voiced to one arm and cart.
If the equipment uses some of the few overhyped types, maybe. But there are still many tube types which are available as NOS in abundance and are very well usable for audio. Such tubes can be bought in bulk. I stocked up many such NOS types so I can produce amps with these for many years and always have spare tubes for replacement if needed. Admittedly I only produce relatively small quantities and when it comes to types like the EC8020 I am also somewhat limited. But for other types I have a stock of 20.000 tubes which enables me to work with for many years. And when it comes to directly heated tubes, I make my own :)

Thomas
 

steve williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I agree with Tang on this one. Amps can be designed such that tube rolling does not change the overall sound character too much as long as the tubes are in good condition. Tube rolling should not be a necessity to get the full sound potential, rather a means to play and get some subtle changes

best regards

Thomas
what if the manufacturer strongly advises against tube rolling and feels that his component is perfectly voiced with the tubes he has selected, do you all feel the burning need to prove yourself smarter and to roll the tubes against advice?
 
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bonzo75

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Many manufacturers feel that way. Also most don't advise using isolation or any deviation from stock power chord. Crossover components are also used lower priced materials and they will tell you changing that won't make a difference. Audiophiles are a collective intelligence community. Shared intelligence can both make a stock product better or worse.

Thomas I would love to compare NOS Amperex 211 on your amps
 

VinylSavor

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Hi! Tube rolling without a deep understanding of what are you doing does not really provide any knowledge. Some amplifiers are very sensitive to tiny changes in the op point. Tubes can easily vary plus minus 20% in parameters even when new. That has always been the case and a good amp works well with tubes over that range. Now if you plug in some new tubes without knowing how their test results compare to the old ones, how duo you know if it is the particular brand of tubes which sounds better? Or the old tube just was worn out? Or the amp sounds slightly better with just those parameters while another probably won't?
 
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Tango

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Thomas I would love to compare NOS Amperex 211 on your amps
He indirectly answered your curiosity by saying this.

"Amps can be designed such that tube rolling does not change the overall sound character too much as long as the tubes are in good condition. Tube rolling should not be a necessity to get the full sound potential, rather a means to play and get some subtle changes."

Knock! Knock!

Tang :)
 

bonzo75

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Hi! Tube rolling without a deep understanding of what are you doing does not really provide any knowledge. Some amplifiers are very sensitive to tiny changes in the op point. Tubes can easily vary plus minus 20% in parameters even when new. That has always been the case and a good amp works well with tubes over that range. Now if you plug in some new tubes without knowing how their test results compare to the old ones, how duo you know if it is the particular brand of tubes which sounds better? Or the old tube just was worn out? Or the amp sounds slightly better with just those parameters while another probably won't?
So do RCA, GE, and Amperex work electrically in your amp and is sound change significant?
 

bonzo75

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VinylSavor

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So do RCA, GE, and Amperex work electrically in your amp and is sound change significant?
Yes, they can all be used. They will all sound a bit different but going to a different, better version of amp makes a much much larger difference. I of course prefer my own Elrog tubes, the biggest reason for them sounding different is the better vacuum. Elrog tubes typically measure 10 times less grid current than NOS tubes (this is a way to measure quality of vacuum).
 

Tango

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I talked about sibilance in the Master Sig thread and look what ddk sent me. Three pairs of RCA's and a roll of speaker cables from Amazon. LOL.:D

027F1840-6BB6-4434-9493-64E056894F2D.jpeg

This is his way with me. He never persuaded me..but leave the option to me to try myself.

I am very very happy with my Kuro. I am also not Ron Resnick on sibilance. I will try these cheap cables only if I change to new amps and preamps and the sibilance gets too hot.

My journey continues.

Tang :)
 

bonzo75

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Even Ron is not Ron Resnick on sibilance. Ron is a person who listens. Ron Resnick is a guy on the internet who reads something and overreacts to a word and has now got the listener Ron's strategy mixed up that he is getting two similar carts on two different arms so that he can soon stop listening to one
 
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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Tang, I'd have been more impressed w Dave had he sent you a $99.99 tt from Amazon LOL.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Yep Ked, reading something online and overreacting to it. Sounds like everyday existence via the internet in 2019.
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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Even Ron is not Ron Resnick on sibilance. Ron is a person who listens. Ron Resnick is a guy on the internet who reads something and overreacts to a word and has now got the listener Ron's strategy mixed up that he is getting two similar carts on two different arms so that he can soon stop listening to one
now, now We're all trying to be successful/happy with our choices. Ron laid his out for critique/feedback. tell the truth and be kind.
 

bonzo75

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now, now We're all trying to be successful/happy with our choices. Ron laid his out for critique/feedback. tell the truth and be kind.
I am not saying his choice is wrong. I am saying he is being inconsistent by his own logic to arrive at a choice, and that his own choice can be bettered. It need not be mine
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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Ked, you're as clear as: a mountain stream*/mud*

*: delete as applicable .
 

tima

Industry Expert
Mar 4, 2014
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I am not saying his choice is wrong. I am saying he is being inconsistent by his own logic to arrive at a choice, and that his own choice can be bettered. It need not be mine
Yes, I understood that. It was also clear in yr other post on R's choices.
 

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