Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[ddk]

Simple answer don’t need to with AS motor but it’s programmed that way, this technic of ramping up and ramping down was new 50 years ago everyone's doing it today! As for the rest I’ve it repeated enough, professor-a titular!
david

 

[tima]

Perhaps we can have a separate thread on motor drive systems, just technical, free from our preference debates!

I vote for that!

I don't think talking about drive systems types can be sufficiently specific because implementation is a key. And, how far can we get with specific drive system implementation comparison with many other variables in play, like ... noise, to arrive at some sonic correlation or comparative sonic correlation wrt this drive system vs that drive system.

Lot's of talk about the how of motor systems. But what about measured effect, such as peak speed deviation from 33-?, frequency of deviation.

 

[microstrip]

Simple answer don’t need to with AS motor but it’s programmed that way, this technic of ramping up and ramping down was new 50 years ago everyone's doing it today! As for the rest I’ve it repeated enough, professor-a titular!
david

Yes, the ramping technique is not new. However, the use of DSP can give us better performance - for example, fine tune the phase and amplitude of each individual coil phase to compensate any asymmetry of each motor sample. I have a good friend who is a stethoscope fan - he tunes his turntables to absolute minimal mechancial noise, I am sure he would be very pleased with such unit! But I can easily imagine a system where the motor is self tuned using signals from sensors to best performance before playing each LP ...

The new techniques can be used both ways - I have read that some people apply harmonic distortions to the motor drive to create a better (different, surely) sound. However I have not found evidence of such use in a commercial turntable.

 

[Tango]

I’m messing with you Francisco, heard a top of the line Lampi recently, and was
impressed

Everybody is messing with Francisco because he is adorable.

I vote for that!

I don't think talking about drive systems types can be sufficiently specific because implementation is a key. And, how far can we get with specific drive system implementation comparison with many other variables in play, like ... noise, to arrive at some sonic correlation or comparative sonic correlation wrt this drive system vs that drive system.

Lot's of talk about the how of motor systems. But what about measured effect, such as peak speed deviation from 33-?, frequency of deviation.

How come you never appear to have an itch putting the Monaco on a Herzan? Just curious.

kind regards,
Tang

 

[Mike Lavigne]

How come you never appear to have an itch putting the Monaco on a Herzan? Just curious.

kind regards,
Tang

Dear Tang,

surely you mean the Taiko Tana modified Herzan. the Herzan (or Table Stable) by itself is a mixed bag of SMPS limitiations/compromises and the absence of resonance attenuation above 200hz. it does need an appropriate solid shelf and floor to be optimal.

i do agree the Monaco would be an excellent candidate for the Tana shelf as it deals with it's own resonance very well like the NVS. i had the original Monaco in my system for a year back in the day.

best regards,

Mike

 

[ddk]

Perhaps we can have a separate thread on motor drive systems, just technical, free from our preference debates!

You're changing my words Francisco, it is NOT a matter of preference there IS a downside to governors and it's been acknowledged by many tt manufacturers. Of course claims are made that they each have new schemes in place to counter it's effects, including the cogging associated with direct drives.

david

 

[ddk]

Yes, the ramping technique is not new. However, the use of DSP can give us better performance - for example, fine tune the phase and amplitude of each individual coil phase to compensate any asymmetry of each motor sample. I have a good friend who is a stethoscope fan - he tunes his turntables to absolute minimal mechancial noise, I am sure he would be very pleased with such unit! But I can easily imagine a system where the motor is self tuned using signals from sensors to best performance before playing each LP ...

The new techniques can be used both ways - I have read that some people apply harmonic distortions to the motor drive to create a better (different, surely) sound. However I have not found evidence of such use in a commercial turntable.

Everyone is using dsp theses days, even the cheap Chinese controllers on eBay have them and the mechanical results are the same no matter which electronic scheme you use. The benefits of programming and ramping are over emphasized in belt drives IMO, the sonic benefits if any are very limited IME.

Edit- You can put a stethoscope up an ant's butt too, the question is can you squeeze any oil out of it? It's the same with your friend how does he tune a turntable with bearing rumble for example? I remember reading this stuff back in the 80's from some AS or Stereophile reviewer and I was thinking the same back then, so what?

david

 

[ddk]

Tape also has an advantage that it doesn’t vary in speed from being “out of round” which causes the best TT’s speed to be off when nothing is perfectly centered unless it’s on a Nakamichi 1000 thing.

Then you buy that Nakamichi tt based on looks and marketing to find out that all your records are centered but they sound like crap! Personal experience !

david

 

[Lagonda]

Then you buy that Nakamichi tt based on looks and marketing to find out that all your records are centered but they sound like crap! Personal experience !

david

Not exactly right David, a lot of the records are not centered correctly.
I had a Forsell tangential arm on
a Nakamichi TT and the centering corrected a lot of problem records,
obvious when watcing arm movement. Sound vice it rarely made
a difference, and the DD tables where surely not the last word in
fidelity for other reasons.

 

[ddk]

Not exactly right David, a lot of the records are not centered correctly.
I had a Forsell tangential arm on
a Nakamichi TT and the centering corrected a lot of problem records,
obvious when watcing arm movement. Sound vice it rarely made
a difference, and the DD tables where surely not the last word in
fidelity for other reasons.

That’s what I meant, it centered the records but sound was like a cheap dd.
david

 

[microstrip]

Everybody is messing with Francisco because he is adorable. (...)

kind regards,
Tang

Dear Tang,

Nice to know we are both adorable. But I am happy that a very few people are messing with my arguments, it means they are relevant and only proper debate and an exchange of arguments allows us to progress and have a better understanding in these matters.

You also are an owner of an AF1, aren't you happy to know that it is free of servo and feedback when playing LPs?

 

[microstrip]

Everyone is using dsp theses days, even the cheap Chinese controllers on eBay have them and the mechanical results are the same no matter which electronic scheme you use. The benefits of programming and ramping are over emphasized in belt drives IMO, the sonic benefits if any are very limited IME.

Edit- You can put a stethoscope up an ant's butt too, the question is can you squeeze any oil out of it? It's the same with your friend how does he tune a turntable with bearing rumble for example? I remember reading this stuff back in the 80's from some AS or Stereophile reviewer and I was thinking the same back then, so what?

david

I write about top designs with excellent quality motors , you move to eBay Chinese cheap designs ... We are in different worlds. BTW, fortunately my friend turntables have very little rumble, but anyway we were addressing separate motors, not turntable bearings ...

The moreimeediate effects of ramping are faster startup and convenience keeping optimum drive quality, an important aspect for many users, such as me. My car does not need a push to start, I expect my turntable to do the same.

 

[ddk]

I write about top designs with excellent quality motors , you move to eBay Chinese cheap designs ... We are in different worlds.

Just pointing out that DSP is common place today with controllers today, that's not what makes good sound.

BTW, fortunately my friend turntables have very little rumble, but anyway we were addressing separate motors, not turntable bearings ...

Isn't this what you wrote?

I have a good friend who is a stethoscope fan - he tunes his turntables to absolute minimal mechancial noise.

So what does he do to motors, change spark plugs ? You can remove some vibration from some motors with a 3phase supply but tune it how otherwise?

The moreimeediate effects of ramping are faster startup and convenience keeping optimum drive quality, an important aspect for many users, such as me. My car does not need a push to start, I expect my turntable to do the same.

We do it too along with many, many, many others, very old technic and the reality is that has no sonic benefit and the only time you need to ramp up for optimum drive quality is when you have to use a governor to nudge the platter up or down. In fact when using solid belts with heavy platters to speed up quickly without a little nudge one has to over tighten the belt to some detriment of sound quality, the purpose of a heavy platter is to use inertia to spin freely with less input from the motor, by tightening the belt so you wouldn't hurt your fingers giving the platter a nudge will only hold the platter back and increase the influence of the motor that one to reduce. FYI the tricky part is the ramp down so you don't overshoot coming down too fast from 45 to 33.3 and vice versa when ramping up, startup is not important and you don't need a governor, servo or feedback loop to program any of this.

Let me know when your car starts playing records !

David

 

[Folsom]

I have no intention to buy the Nakamichi. But I've been dreaming up ways to center records easily without having the platter and stuff they have. Even a small amount is audible. Good records are usually pretty darn close though.

 

[Lagonda]

Just pointing out that DSP is common place today with controllers today, that's not what makes good sound.

Doesn’t your controller ramp up on
startup David ? I'm sure the software
is the same as in the Phoenix
controller, with different power supplies obviously.
As for giving the heavy platter a nudge, why would you not ? The extra wear on the belt is not necessary.

 

[Tango]

You also are an owner of an AF1, aren't you happy to know that it is free of servo and feedback when playing LPs?

I learn a lot of my own equipment on technical aspect when you guys debate ( or more like pinch at one another ). I put little interest examining how each equipment achieve the sound it offers. Servo, no servo, air bearing, no air bearing, etc. The unique sound of each tt I own including the AF1 is the thing that gives me happiness when listening different LPs.

Tang

 

[Tango]

Doesn’t your controller ramp up on
startup David ? I'm sure the software
is the same as in the Phoenix
controller, with different power supplies obviously.
As for giving the heavy platter a nudge, why would you not ? The extra wear on the belt is not necessary.

My mid finger ramp up Lagonda. A little finger foreplay to get thing going is a charming ritual .

 

[microstrip]

I learn a lot of my own equipment on technical aspect when you guys debate ( or more like pinch at one another ). I put little interest examining how each equipment achieve the sound it offers. Servo, no servo, air bearing, no air bearing, etc. The unique sound of each tt I own including the AF1 is the thing that gives me happiness when listening different LPs.

Tang

Probably if you do not understand or are not interested in the technical aspects it looks like pinching to you. For me (and most others, I hope) they are interesting debates, spiced by different experiences and preferences.

Apologies, I will move the drive debate to another thread.

 

[tima]

Just pointing out that DSP is common place today with controllers today, that's not what makes good sound

Relying on 60Hz line frequency is commonplace with controllers today.

IOS is not Android. DSP is not a monolithic technology. implying that any means of rotational control using software is some how inadequate to good sound is, imo, unconvincing.

 

[Lagonda]

My mid finger ramp up Lagonda. A little finger foreplay to get thing going is a charming ritual .

LOL Tango, I’m more of whole hand kind of guy, when I “push the platter “
of coarse