Zero Distortion: Tango Time

bonzo75

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Tango

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Enough gear talk. Here is Beethoven Piano Sonata 21"Waldstein". It is unbelievable how one person could create so many "Master Piece"s. The pianists who played this Waldstein and I like most are Backhaus and Brendel. Both have totally different style of playing. Today I show Backhaus. Outstanding piece of piano. The video is a little long because the music actually pulled me into while recording ... time just lapsed. The record is Decca SXL2241. The one I have has some problem with surface noise...pity. Vinyl would be "the" ultimate format if it weren't for surface noise.

0395270A-4039-4514-AED6-421E528F1990.jpeg
 

bonzo75

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awsmone

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Enough gear talk. Here is Beethoven Piano Sonata 21"Waldstein". It is unbelievable how one person could create so many "Master Piece"s. The pianists who played this Waldstein and I like most are Backhaus and Brendel. Both have totally different style of playing. Today I show Backhaus. Outstanding piece of piano. The video is a little long because the music actually pulled me into while recording ... time just lapsed. The record is Decca SXL2241. The one I have has some problem with surface noise...pity. Vinyl would be "the" ultimate format if it weren't for surface noise.

View attachment 60727

this is wonderful recording indeed, will check if I have this one, and good recording too Tang
piano tone so much inner detail

i wonder could u play the slow movement till it goes into the third ?

great playing how did Backhaus do that while it was raining ? ;)
 

Tango

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this is wonderful recording indeed, will check if I have this one, and good recording too Tang
piano tone so much inner detail

i wonder could u play the slow movement till it goes into the third ?

great playing how did Backhaus do that while it was raining ? ;)
On slow movement into third the rain might come into effect a little more. But people in the tropic and UK are quite used to. How about aussie? ;)
 

awsmone

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Australia has been in drought for nearly 2 years
Many towns have no water
Some children have never seen it rain
There was a little relief in places with a heavy shower on Thursday but not enough to get us out of draught
 

marty

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Dear Tango,

I believe your words - my main question concerning the videos is that they show such large differences between the tape machines that I doubt on their value to show anything to listeners, other then entertainement. I have listened and was terrified with the huge tonal differences. It looks like you are using a very expensive equalizer in the tape chains.

Please look at the accumulated spectra of just the opening bars - the first 10 seconds, just the 10-1000Hz bandwith (Ballfinger on top). It is not just head alignment surely.

BTW, anyone can repeat my measurements - just download the free analyzer at https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en and run the frequency tool using the video sound as input. Using the dB scale was also very interesting. Probably our WBF tape experts will diagnose the tape reproduction differences better than me.


View attachment 60718

This is very interesting information. But using a musical signal is making this spectral comparison much harder than it needs to be. Why not just use a tape (the same tape on the two machines of course) of pink noise? That would be highly informative.
 

andromedaaudio

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Sounds good tang , sounds like music AS 2000/ vd H /Waldstein backhaus :).

I m currently comparing Sheheradze on the 2 tape machines
 
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andromedaaudio

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One cannot conclude that from the graph microstrip showed imo , but its never a bad idea to do a calibration check , that goes for both machines , but you need a GOOD tech
The studer has the expensive tubed out put stage , Ballfinger had to built a whole tapemachine within a certain price perspective, a ss outputstage gives a less warmer sound in general and different bass ( I m certainly not saying less or worse depends on the design )
It would be the best to get a ballfinger with a direct heads heads out included for comparisons .
What i would state is that the turntable sounds very ¨ sparkling .¨ compared to the tape
But this is of you tube off course so its not the whole picture :rolleyes:
 
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bonzo75

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Hi Ron,

Videos are just supplement. I describe sound I hear in my system when someone ask me question. I don't want to write ahead and lead people to hear. Video can be very useful to help describe more tangibly what people in the room hear. Good writers can describe sound so beautifully making the reader imagine how wonderful sound it could be. They are talent at that. But do you really know their reference level? You never even heard his system. Their reference could be mediocre to me or you, but they describe the sound from their system so damn wonderful with their gifted writing skill. Me, Ked and Gian share videos almost everyday. On videos that one of us was there, the other two could actually describe the sound from video and cross check with the one who was there. More often than not our comments were consistent of what one of us in that room heard. Three of us has different preferences but we have the reference point at pretty much the same level. So video using as suppliment can be very useful tool when you do comparison and to screen what interesting and what not vaguely. I am not trying to convince anyone the merits of video. This is just my opinion. We all have our ways.

Regardin the tone of my A820+Doshi. It is warmer and more organic than the Ballfinger, A820 with its own phono card and the ATR102. I had all of them in my room listening extensively. Imagine a stereo with tone adjustable feature. The tone my A820+Doshi is as if the Ballfinger has the tone adjustable knobs and you tone down your treble adjustment knob and turn the bass adjustment knob up one tick pass the middle. I also think the clarity and treble of Ballfinger come with a degree of thinness. If you listen to the Scheherazade videos below (I know you wont do that Ron. But some of us might.) Listen to the triangle and the cymbals. The Studer+Doshi has that charming effervescent tailend of ringing, but the Ballfinger gives just a harder treble with little tailend. The presentation of Studer+Doshi also go deeper where as the Ballfinger more upclose as a few friends mentioned commented. On orchestra I like the presentation of Studer+ Doshi. On high impact crescendothe Studer+Dosihi just make this earth shaking majestic powerful sound, but not the same level with Ballfinger. And you get the sense of hall more from Studer+Doshi. But as some said my Studer head alignment has problem. Is there really a problem? I don't know. But if I don't make any comparison videos someone might just say it already sounds nice. See the videos wont let me bullshit. ;)

Ballfinger


Studer/Doshi


On this Studer is much better. Balfinger is quite poor, in fact I think something must be wrong
 

Tango

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One cannot conclude that from the graph microstrip showed imo , but its never a bad idea to do a calibration check , that goes for both machines , but you need a GOOD tech
The studer has the expensive tubed out put stage , Ballfinger had to built a whole tapemachine within a certain price perspective, a ss outputstage gives a less warmer sound in general and different bass ( I m certainly not saying less or worse depends on the design )
It would be the best to get a ballfinger with a direct heads heads out included for comparisons .
What i would state is that the turntable sounds very ¨ sparkling .¨ compared to the tape
But this is of you tube off course so its not the whole picture :rolleyes:
Good tech is hard to come by in Thailand. I solely rely on Mr.Doshi. I have my trust in him. I am lazy. But I will be talking to him to make sure my tape head and alignment are in great shape. The tone of Studer/ Doshi is like Awsmones and Bob described centered below the navel. Funny thing about it is, it lacks mid-hign but somehow reveal such excellent high on the very top. The trails on percussions are just addicting. If I could get more of Ballfinger "from navel up", this Studer/Doshi will be the ultimate for me.

I totally understand why you are interested in just the transport version of Ballfinger.

Tang :)
 

microstrip

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This is very interesting information. But using a musical signal is making this spectral comparison much harder than it needs to be. Why not just use a tape (the same tape on the two machines of course) of pink noise? That would be highly informative.

Surely a test tape would be much more valuable than music. However, as I said, the key issue in these measurements is the stability of the microphone - a small movement can compromise them. Running a test tape with tones in a tape reel machine looking to the VU meters is not difficult and is the minimum that is needed in this case. Sometimes tapes have this test tones in the tape.
Tapeproject sends such tape to subscribers. After reading Tang posts I immediately checked my Studer A80 ...

a1.jpg
 

microstrip

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One cannot conclude that from the graph microstrip showed imo , but its never a bad idea to do a calibration check , that goes for both machines , but you need a GOOD tech

For a check all is needed is the tape, even a child can do it!

Calibration needs a good technician or some common sense and will to learn. It is easier and faster than setting a tonearm and cartridge.

The studer has the expensive tubed out put stage , Ballfinger had to built a whole tapemachine within a certain price perspective, a ss outputstage gives a less warmer sound in general and different bass ( I m certainly not saying less or worse depends on the design )
It would be the best to get a ballfinger with a direct heads heads out included for comparisons .
What i would state is that the turntable sounds very ¨ sparkling .¨ compared to the tape
But this is of you tube off course so its not the whole picture :rolleyes:

Reel to reel tape mechanisms should be compared using test tapes and measurement instruments. Fortunately, as reel to reel tape machines were used by professionals not just by consumers, experts from the industry invested a lot the research and development of specialized instruments that are able to tell us all about their quality. The man I would like to ear about the Ballringer mechanical performance is surely Fred Thal.

The electronics is a matter of preference, no absolutes there, although it is disappointing that we can't get the ATAE head pre-preamplfier unless we buy the whole machine.
 

Tango

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For a check all is needed is the tape, even a child can do it!

Calibration needs a good technician or some common sense and will to learn. It is easier and faster than setting a tonearm and cartridge.


The electronics is a matter of preference, no absolutes there, although it is disappointing that we can't get the ATAE head pre-preamplfier unless we buy the whole machine.
I am lazy. And I am less than a child my dear professor. ;) Cartridge setup learning was a different matter. David just wouldn't leave me alone in peace nor leave my place if I didn't learn that stuff from him.

Tape is not on my agenda list.

I have listened to the ATE twice on different occasions in my system. What I like about them was how fast they wind tape. :D
 
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andromedaaudio

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Im a mechanical technican by trade ?repair qc installment supervsion) and if i look at the ballfinger insides mechanically i see in my view a very stabile rugged well thought out machine , certainly not a flimsy attempt to make a quick buck of the tape resurgence..
Is it possible the transport sound wise equals or even bettters the studer.sure why not imo.
You had mr doshi himself , then i certainly would nt worry much about alignment problems, but from what i know it needs to be done once in a while
And if one records with a different tapetype.
Mr thal sells restored A80 s tape amps , off course he is gonna say his are better, proof is in the listening.
May be we can open a thread in r2r forum with everything about alignment if its not already there.
May be some of the members who are tapetechs will chime in ,.
 
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Ron Resnick

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Hi Ron,

Videos are just supplement. I describe sound I hear in my system when someone ask me question. I don't want to write ahead and lead people to hear. Video can be very useful to help describe more tangibly what people in the room hear. Good writers can describe sound so beautifully making the reader imagine how wonderful sound it could be. They are talent at that. But do you really know their reference level? You never even heard his system. Their reference could be mediocre to me or you, but they describe the sound from their system so damn wonderful with their gifted writing skill. Me, Ked and Gian share videos almost everyday. On videos that one of us was there, the other two could actually describe the sound from video and cross check with the one who was there. More often than not our comments were consistent of what one of us in that room heard. Three of us has different preferences but we have the reference point at pretty much the same level. So video using as suppliment can be very useful tool when you do comparison and to screen what interesting and what not vaguely. I am not trying to convince anyone the merits of video. This is just my opinion. We all have our ways.

Regardin the tone of my A820+Doshi. It is warmer and more organic than the Ballfinger, A820 with its own phono card and the ATR102. I had all of them in my room listening extensively. Imagine a stereo with tone adjustable feature. The tone my A820+Doshi is as if the Ballfinger has the tone adjustable knobs and you tone down your treble adjustment knob and turn the bass adjustment knob up one tick pass the middle. I also think the clarity and treble of Ballfinger come with a degree of thinness. If you listen to the Scheherazade videos below (I know you wont do that Ron. But some of us might.) Listen to the triangle and the cymbals. The Studer+Doshi has that charming effervescent tailend of ringing, but the Ballfinger gives just a harder treble with little tailend. The presentation of Studer+Doshi also go deeper where as the Ballfinger more upclose as a few friends mentioned commented. On orchestra I like the presentation of Studer+ Doshi. On high impact crescendothe Studer+Dosihi just make this earth shaking majestic powerful sound, but not the same level with Ballfinger. And you get the sense of hall more from Studer+Doshi. But as some said my Studer head alignment has problem. Is there really a problem? I don't know. But if I don't make any comparison videos someone might just say it already sounds nice. See the videos wont let me bullshit. ;)

Ballfinger


Studer/Doshi



Dear Tang,

Thank you very, very much for your thoughtful and detailed and understandable elaboration. I appreciate it!

For what it’s worth I much prefer the sound in the Studer video!
 
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andromedaaudio

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I think the most honest comparison in this case would be to use the A820 Standard included ss output stage.
So Standard A820 against the Standard ballfinger because this ballfinger doesnt have direct heads out to combine it with the doshi
 

Folsom

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I got a my Lazar Berman today. Interesting way to pay for shipping.

 
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andromedaaudio

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Lol what country did that came from ?
Reminds me of a box I still have at home ,12 completely new( unrecorded )10,5 inch AMPEX tapes/ pancake from 1972
 

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