Is High End Audio Gear Worth the Money?

Atmasphere · Monday at 11:23 AM

TonyW said:
Is someone going to drive a million dollar sports car on a dirt road?

IMO if you can't its not worth it. But I like to drive to really high places on really rough roads.

Elliot G. said:
By this definition everything anyone says is high end because they say it is

No, you missed the part about intention. Its high end audio if intended to be so.

Elliot G. said:
DIY= do it yourselfI know we are discussing semantics but copying someone else’s product yourself for yourself has IMO virtually no value except to the guy that wants to do this for whatever reason. The audio Industry has for generations attempted to make things that sound better . They have done this is various ways . There are new technologies and materials and new designs and there are improvements on old designs.Doing it for yourself and declaring that it’s great maybe fine but not for me. If you can’t do it and make it successful so others can experience it I find something seriously lacking
Just my opinion

FWIW there are a fair number of tube products that are simply copies of older designs. You can start with the Western Electric SETs...
Dynaco is part of the high end audio community. Some of the products they make are really unchanged from 50 years ago. Their smallest amp, perhaps only $1500, can put a lot of SETs to shame. They make kits, which qualify as DIY as does Bottlehead; we've made kits too.

Elliot G. said:
What is high end audio ?

I explained that back at the beginning of this thread. High end audio is driven by intention and nothing else. Price has nothing to do with it...

Elliot G. said:
My point was YOU making a product for YOU that no one else can get is IMO not high end .Its not high end because it is unknown .

-thus, this statement is false.

Elliot G. said:
How can you verify the performance is High End if no one ever hears it?

Heck, we can't even verify the performance of quite a few products that people have heard!

hopkins · Monday at 11:23 AM

microstrip said:
Well, IMO in the high-end something that can't be scrutinized should be considered irrelevant. I must say I feel the same for unobtanium.

Noted. The question is not directly relevant to the thread's topic anyway. It's more of a parallel discussion.

Rensselaer · Monday at 11:40 AM

Elliot G. said:
Well this is a philosophical discussion then not one based in the real world. How can you verify the performance is High End if no one ever hears it?
Can you get a Michelin Star if no one eats your food? I am not disagreeing that High End is performance based. I totally agree that it is however it also has to be something that is real and IMO it needs to be something that people can hear( I think that it needs to be something that is a product as well but I can understand differing opinions to that however not mine) I feel if it doesn't exist I don't care if a tree falls

OK, I get it, If you were invited round to listen to someone’s system, made up of bought and home-made components, and it performed better than any other system you had ever heard, it would still not be a “high-end” system because it didn’t wasn’t sold at the “high-end” level of the spectrum of prices for known commercial products.

High-end then only applies to price, so the question being asked is not whether the system is worth the price but rather “is the price worth the price”?

Kingrex · Monday at 11:53 AM

High end is open ended as a concept. Is it $$$ or is it sound. Or is it both. A dealer would logically want you to believe it has tp be both. $$$$ = revenue for the business. The consumer could logically want it to be either. $$$ and performance on one end. Just performance on the other.

I fall firmly on the performance end. I believe a high end stereo is one that plays music very well. They come in all different $$$ value.

To me, appearance is 0 to high end. I can't hear a fancy case. I want my $$$ invested into materials that impact sound.

I am intent on building my own subs because some of the best sounding subs I have heard are home made. You can knock on the side of the cabinet and hear the home made unit is denser and more inert. You know the quality of the drivers. You use a much better amp than a class D plate amp screwed to the box. You have better electronics controlling all the subs and integrating them to the mains.

DIY is a legitimate road to a stereo that plays music on a high end spectrum. All of it. From speakers to amps to cables to servers. A DIY build can play fantastic. I would say the maker of DIY needs some level of skill and knowledge. I doubt they make it all. But a woodworker with a shop could program his CNC to cut amazing cabinets or horn throats. An engineer could make a excellent Amp, preamp or server/DAC. I'm not sure what it takes to make a driver. But you don't have to coat a cone with diamond dust to call it high end. Scanspeak, JL Audio and many other off the shelf brands placed into a box can rival the most expensive speakers. Why not. Many of those speakers advertize using speakers from these manufacturers. The crossover is probably the biggest influence. Going active with multiple amps may well close the gap or supersede an expensive store bough model.

For me and some of my closer friends, high end is high quality sound. Price is irrelevant. And we do a lot on our own. Some others I know chase high quality sound with high $$ investments.

Atmasphere · Monday at 11:56 AM

Kingrex said:
High end is open ended as a concept. Is it $$$ or is it sound. Or is it both

Neither. Intention to be high end suggests that sound has something to do with it but price doesn't.

Kingrex · Monday at 11:58 AM

hopkins said:
P.S. the system described in the article below is much more representative, I believe, of what music enthusiasts generally acquire. It's not only a question of budget, but also reflects what an average person would find "good enough" to satisfy their needs:

Musicians As Audiophiles: Dan Weiss

Drummer/composer Dan Weiss has wide-ranging musical tastes, superb skills, and a rocking little Rega-based system in his cozy Brooklyn, New York apartment. Dan has drummed with many jazz greats, but it's his own projects that have generated the greatest interest. He's a thinking musician's...

www.stereophile.com

He has this to say:

"Maybe musicians get more sustenance from listening on a whatever system than an average listener because of their innate musical abilities," Dan replied. "They're listening differently to begin with. They're listening with a different skill set. So musically, they can get a lot of it without using high-end equipment. Or perhaps since musicians have gone through such a rigorous amount of listening during their development, once you get bit by a certain bug it doesn't matter what you're listening on. You're listening to music for the sheer emotion and enjoyment and content."

I find this to be the case for a lot of people, not just musicians.

I went to a chamber performance yesterday. I listened to the sound. But I was also listening to the skill of the players. I then went home and fired up some pieces they played. I was listening to the skill of the players. Not the stereo. I bet a lot of musicians do the same. They probably listen for the technical skills of the players.

Atmasphere · Monday at 12:02 PM

Kingrex said:
They probably listen for the technical skills of the players.

They also listen for the notes if they are figuring out how to play the piece.

Kingrex · Monday at 12:02 PM

Atmasphere said:
Intention to be high end suggests that sound has something to do with it but price doesn't.

What I mean is most all want quality sound. Just some believe $$$ are a part of the definition. While others believe its just performance level.

Then the question is, how do you gauge performance level. That swings you back to so many thinking the $$$ does it. Its easiest to see. And with listening, there is the whole preference. If it gets loud and big, that is enough for most.

Elliot G. · Monday at 12:04 PM

Rensselaer said:
OK, I get it, If you were invited round to listen to someone’s system, made up of bought and home-made components, and it performed better than any other system you had ever heard, it would still not be a “high-end” system because it didn’t wasn’t sold at the “high-end” level of the spectrum of prices for known commercial products.

High-end then only applies to price, so the question being asked is not whether the system is worth the price but rather “is the price worth the price”?

again you are twisting my words so that it fits your narrative. You win I'm out this is going nowhere. Not once have I ever mentioned price. I did however mention that it needs to be a product and have availability for me. I don't deal in unobtanium or fantasy only reality.

PeterA · Monday at 12:17 PM

Elliot G. said:
Well this is a philosophical discussion then not one based in the real world. How can you verify the performance is High End if no one ever hears it?
Can you get a Michelin Star if no one eats your food? I am not disagreeing that High End is performance based. I totally agree that it is however it also has to be something that is real and IMO it needs to be something that people can hear( I think that it needs to be something that is a product as well but I can understand differing opinions to that however not mine) I feel if it doesn't exist I don't care if a tree falls

Elliot, what do you mean by “does not exist”? Not covered by the magazines or audio shows? Not heard by how many people? Not sold through conventional dealer networks? Does it have to be in current production? Number of existing unit units?

I’ve heard rare and covered items that are certainly high-end given their intent, their build quality, and their performance level. They are just extremely rare and not what I would consider part of the “mainstream” high-end audio industry.

Atmasphere · Monday at 12:19 PM

Kingrex said:
What I mean is most all want quality sound. Just some believe $$$ are a part of the definition. While others believe its just performance level.

Then the question is, how do you gauge performance level. That swings you back to so many thinking the $$$ does it. Its easiest to see. And with listening, there is the whole preference. If it gets loud and big, that is enough for most.

You're going to have to spend something. But the simple fact is you can get excellent sound inexpensively or you can get it expensively. Its up to you. Sometimes the really expensive stuff really does sound better. It all comes down to the intention of the designer. But if the designer is in it for the money then like any other field of endeavor its likely to be mediocre.

But many designers intend to do the best they can. Some are better at than others so we hear differences. Funny thing though the one that's better at it might not be charging as much because that isn't their intention.

I've listed examples on this thread and have plenty more. I've had time to think about it since I was first asked this question well over 30 years ago. Even then it was really obvious that price had nothing to do with it. Back then cassettes were still around and Pioneer made a few machines that used Dolby S noise reduction. If you gave them a microphone feed from a set of really good mics they could sound amazing. Sony made a Walkman recorder that could do that too. I used a Walkman for an on-location that was done in a museum since they wouldn't allow AC cords to be used. The recording came off great.

Once you understand how important the designer's intention is in the product, its really obvious that price isn't what's important.

Elliot G. · Monday at 1:01 PM

PeterA said:
Elliot, what do you mean by “does not exist”? Not covered by the magazines or audio shows? Not heard by how many people? Not sold through conventional dealer networks? Does it have to be in current production? Number of existing unit units?

I’ve heard rare and covered items that are certainly high-end given their intent, their build quality, and their performance level. They are just extremely rare and not what I would consider part of the “mainstream” high-end audio industry.

DIY or prototypes or anything else that people can’t see or listen to. That to me is not a “high end product”
Those items could be excellent or crap but how would one know. One man surveys aren’t interesting to me and those who are in audio .
A real high end anything should be recognized in its catagory, should have support, service, should be built very well, finished very well and work as expected .

Btw anything else could be great but they aren’t high end products they are just boxes that may or may not be good
That is my deferential
Not price
Not review
Not dealer claims

Elliot G. · Monday at 1:04 PM

Atmasphere said:
You're going to have to spend something. But the simple fact is you can get excellent sound inexpensively or you can get it expensively. Its up to you. Sometimes the really expensive stuff really does sound better. It all comes down to the intention of the designer. But if the designer is in it for the money then like any other field of endeavor its likely to be mediocre.

But many designers intend to do the best they can. Some are better at than others so we hear differences. Funny thing though the one that's better at it might not be charging as much because that isn't their intention.

I've listed examples on this thread and have plenty more. I've had time to think about it since I was first asked this question well over 30 years ago. Even then it was really obvious that price had nothing to do with it. Back then cassettes were still around and Pioneer made a few machines that used Dolby S noise reduction. If you gave them a microphone feed from a set of really good mics they could sound amazing. Sony made a Walkman recorder that could do that too. I used a Walkman for an on-location that was done in a museum since they wouldn't allow AC cords to be used. The recording came off great.

Once you understand how important the designer's intention is in the product, its really obvious that price isn't what's important.

What if the designers intentions were novel but his skill set was not good?
Not everyone can do it no matter what they want to attempt .
Intentions and feelings don’t trump facts and results

Rensselaer · Monday at 1:20 PM

Elliot G. said:
DIY or prototypes or anything else that people can’t see or listen to. That to me is not a “high end product”
Those items could be excellent or crap but how would one know. One man surveys aren’t interesting to me and those who are in audio .
A real high end anything should be recognized in its catagory, should have support, service, should be built very well, finished very well and work as expected .

Btw anything else could be great but they aren’t high end products they are just boxes that may or may not be good
That is my deferential
Not price
Not review
Not dealer claims

I don’t understand how a system consisting of some home-made products means people can’t see it or listen to it?

Also, why can’t a home-made (turntable/plinth, amplifier etc)., be built very well?
Be finished very well?
Work as expected?

Wasn’t Nelson Pass F-series amps built on his kitchen table after he had sold Pass Labs?
Aren’t Decware devices made one at a time in his home?

Atmasphere · Monday at 1:37 PM

Elliot G. said:
What if the designers intentions were novel but his skill set was not good?
Not everyone can do it no matter what they want to attempt .

You might be surprised. I know I was! This is why as I said :

many designers intend to do the best they can. Some are better at than others so we hear differences.

I meant to say 'at that than' in the sentence above.
You don't have to look very hard to find examples of stuff than could have been a lot better had the designer tried harder or knew what they were doing (hard to know exactly which at times...). But despite that the equipment is still considered 'high end'.

Elliot G. · Monday at 2:01 PM

Atmasphere said:
You might be surprised. I know I was! This is why as I said :

I meant to say 'at that than' in the sentence above.
You don't have to look very hard to find examples of stuff than could have been a lot better had the designer tried harder or knew what they were doing (hard to know exactly which at times...). But despite that the equipment is still considered 'high end'.

This has become a circular discussion

Rensselaer said:
I don’t understand how a system consisting of some home-made products means people can’t see it or listen to it?

I have something in my house I made. I say its the best "thing" ever. I call it High end.
How would you know? How can you see and hear it? How do you even know it exists?

. My definition of what is and what isn't high end is obviously different than others here.

Rensselaer · Monday at 2:04 PM

Elliot G. said:
This has become a circular discussion

I have something in my house I made. I say its the best "thing" ever. I call it High end.
How would you know? How can you see and hear it? How do you even know it exists?

. My definition of what is and what isn't high end is obviously different than others here.

Maybe it’s the language barrier, I’ll leave you alone.

hopkins · Monday at 2:07 PM

Elliot G. said:
My definition of what is and what isn't high end is obviously different than others here.

What was your definition? Nevermind, I found it...

"A real high end anything should be recognized in its catagory, should have support, service, should be built very well, finished very well and work as expected ."

My 200$ WiiM Pro streamer meets all these criteria, IMO.

Robh3606 · Monday at 2:37 PM

Elliot G. said:
You call copying something DIY? Just curious since I wouldn’t .

So you have never built a Dynakit? I built both my ST-400 and SEQ 10 from kits. Is that DIY?

Do you have any idea how difficult it can be to build a successful copy of a speaker system that measures the same?

Do you realize that includes building the cabinets, tuning to fb, working out the crossover schematic, testing and measuring the drivers in your box with Clio as an example and then verifying the crossover and measurements in LEAP?

Then you have break it all down and finish the cabinets in vernier or paint.

With all the work involved I consider it DIY

Now if you are not doing a clone it's much easier. You are on fresh ground with no hard data points beyond whatever performance you have outlined in your design.

Elliot G. said:
No Rob you are twisting it. DIY is not dealer customization or even manufacturer customs it’s a very different thing
I can’t tell you about great looking DIY since I’ve never seen it .

To me customization and DIY are fruit from the same tree. Customization and DIY are unique and personal.

You obviously have not spent any time looking into the DIY community. There are dozens of DIY builds that rival the esthetics and finish on commercial products. Here are 2 1 mine other not, not ashamed by either. Do a search.

Rob

Elliot G. · Monday at 4:14 PM

I have no interest in building kits not my thing I’d rather play golf. It’s your thing then it’s wonderful that you enjoy it but it isn’t mine or the people I work with and for .

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