Anyone Understand Design Approach of Stenheim? What are they doing differently from Magico, YG, Wilson, etc., to have High Sensitivity?

[morricab]

I ve sat 20 -25 min in the sweetspot at this set up during the dutch audio show .
There is no way im gonna swap my CAT gear for that .
Dynamics morricab
and neither the transducers or digital.

View attachment 86463

Planar speakers are not dynamic monsters...not even this brand...

 

[adrianywu]

Tube amps will never sound as good with Wilsons and Magicos as SS amps, and yes cost of SS amps keeps going up for quality. One thing with tube amps is to add a SS preamp like Soulution instead of the valve preamp, then they can work better.

Which 2a3 PP amp did you try? NAF 2a3 is very good, and which valves did you use? Which 300b amp and valves are you using?

The 2A3 amp used in the showroom was a Melody integrated. This is an Australian/Chinese brand, as I understand. Personally, I am using the Allen Wright designed Vacuum State Electronics DPA-300B. I am using the Takatsuki 300B from Japan. My friend ended up buying the Audio Note UK Meishu Tonmeister 300B integrated, with a pair of the new reissue WE300B.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I have been using extremely high sensitivity speakers with DHT amps, since I cannot understand the rationale for using low sensitivity speakers (except lower noise, if your system is not completely clean). I have plasma tweeters and field coil compression mids, driven by 300B monoblocks, with field coil 15" bass in reflex cab that I drive with a SS amp, using a 3-way electronic crossover. I recently helped two friends purchase their sound system. One is a magazine-reading audiophile who is only interested in Wilsons, Tidals, Magicos etc. The other is a music lover who is willing to spend a larger sum for a good sounding system. For the first friend, we have tried different amp/speaker combinations (he is using Magico speakers currently). Nothing sounded good except for some extremely expensive high powered amplifiers that cost 3 to 4 times what his speakers cost. Tube amps were useless. For my second friend, I was able to guide her to high sensitivity speakers. We eventually settled on Zu Definition IV. These speakers have two full range crossover-less 10" paper cone drivers, with a horn compression tweeter on top and a powered subwoofer below. Sensitivity is 101dB/1W at 8 ohms impedance. As Ralph mentioned, without having to work with large woofers, the speakers sounded very dynamic and powerful even with an 8W 300B SET. Interestingly, we also tried a KT120 based PP amp (Rogue Cronus) and the sound was unsatisfactory. The speakers were extremely sensitive to the characteristics of the amp. The tone just was not right. A 2A3 PP amp was better, but the 300B SET was best. I guess with such speakers, the ability to drive low impedance loads is no longer an issue, and other areas of the performance such as tonal balance come to the fore. To be honest, the speakers "only" cost $16.5K, and with a modest SET integrated amp, the combination sounded to my ears much more musical and enjoyable than my other friend's Magicos with 6-figure amps. But that is just my preference.

Adrian, I'm running my Zu Defs 4 on 70W Nat SE2SE 211 tube monos, always good to hear of other positive experiences out there w this spkr.

 

[Atmasphere]

Amps from Aries Cerat, NAT, Ayon are just a few that are sufficiently extended.

You've not really provided evidence of 100KHz bandwidth as far as I know. Was that frequency response or power response? I seriously doubt the latter, yet that is what is needed in real world situations. Frequency response is usually measured at 1 watt; I would expect a lower powered amp to be measured at 1/2 or 1/4 Watt. Heck, even P-P amps are challenged to make it to 100KHz with any power! Do you have any measurements independently produced?

A local customer had an Audio Note amp, SET and with one of the bigger power tubes (211 IIRC), claimed to be some 50 watts; the claim was bandwidth to 50KHz or so. But when actually measured at power, it was rolling off before 20KHz, described to me as a 'waterfall at 14KHz'. This of course is anecdotal; I would not be surprised to find that at some low power level the amp really was only 3dB down at 50KHz. People often confuse frequency response with power bandwidth and they simply are not the same. The latter IMO is the more important spec.

We eventually settled on Zu Definition IV. These speakers have two full range crossover-less 10" paper cone drivers, with a horn compression tweeter on top and a powered subwoofer below. Sensitivity is 101dB/1W at 8 ohms impedance. As Ralph mentioned, without having to work with large woofers, the speakers sounded very dynamic and powerful even with an 8W 300B SET. Interestingly, we also tried a KT120 based PP amp (Rogue Cronus) and the sound was unsatisfactory. The speakers were extremely sensitive to the characteristics of the amp. The tone just was not right. A 2A3 PP amp was better, but the 300B SET was best. I guess with such speakers, the ability to drive low impedance loads is no longer an issue, and other areas of the performance such as tonal balance come to the fore. To be honest, the speakers "only" cost $16.5K, and with a modest SET integrated amp, the combination sounded to my ears much more musical and enjoyable than my other friend's Magicos with 6-figure amps. But that is just my preference.

Zu does not say so, but if you inquire you'll discover that there is a 30 Ohm version of the Definition available by special order.

 

[spiritofmusic]

What does 30 Ohms bring to the party?

 

[Ed.P]

Lower distortion

 

[Aries Cerat]

You've not really provided evidence of 100KHz bandwidth as far as I know. Was that frequency response or power response? I seriously doubt the latter, yet that is what is needed in real world situations. Frequency response is usually measured at 1 watt; I would expect a lower powered amp to be measured at 1/2 or 1/4 Watt. Heck, even P-P amps are challenged to make it to 100KHz with any power! Do you have any measurements independently produced?

A local customer had an Audio Note amp, SET and with one of the bigger power tubes (211 IIRC), claimed to be some 50 watts; the claim was bandwidth to 50KHz or so. But when actually measured at power, it was rolling off before 20KHz, described to me as a 'waterfall at 14KHz'. This of course is anecdotal; I would not be surprised to find that at some low power level the amp really was only 3dB down at 50KHz. People often confuse frequency response with power bandwidth and they simply are not the same. The latter IMO is the more important spec.

Zu does not say so, but if you inquire you'll discover that there is a 30 Ohm version of the Definition available by special order.

Hello

Sorry to rush in this conversation, but not all manufacturers specify power response at 1W.On our amplifiers, we specify FR on 95% of max power. For example, when we say that the new Forte is -3db at 10Hz, this is on 55W output, not on mW levels,which would be lower of course.

I do agree than many badly designed SE amps do narrow their BW especially in the LF , the higher the power. We do not name them of course , as this is not our MO .

Cheers
Stavros

 

[Solypsa]

@adrianywu Your speakers are interesting...if you are inclined to share more about the build please do so!

 

[Cableman]

I have been using extremely high sensitivity speakers with DHT amps, since I cannot understand the rationale for using low sensitivity speakers (except lower noise, if your system is not completely clean). I have plasma tweeters and field coil compression mids, driven by 300B monoblocks, with field coil 15" bass in reflex cab that I drive with a SS amp, using a 3-way electronic crossover. I recently helped two friends purchase their sound system. One is a magazine-reading audiophile who is only interested in Wilsons, Tidals, Magicos etc. The other is a music lover who is willing to spend a larger sum for a good sounding system. For the first friend, we have tried different amp/speaker combinations (he is using Magico speakers currently). Nothing sounded good except for some extremely expensive high powered amplifiers that cost 3 to 4 times what his speakers cost. Tube amps were useless. For my second friend, I was able to guide her to high sensitivity speakers. We eventually settled on Zu Definition IV. These speakers have two full range crossover-less 10" paper cone drivers, with a horn compression tweeter on top and a powered subwoofer below. Sensitivity is 101dB/1W at 8 ohms impedance. As Ralph mentioned, without having to work with large woofers, the speakers sounded very dynamic and powerful even with an 8W 300B SET. Interestingly, we also tried a KT120 based PP amp (Rogue Cronus) and the sound was unsatisfactory. The speakers were extremely sensitive to the characteristics of the amp. The tone just was not right. A 2A3 PP amp was better, but the 300B SET was best. I guess with such speakers, the ability to drive low impedance loads is no longer an issue, and other areas of the performance such as tonal balance come to the fore. To be honest, the speakers "only" cost $16.5K, and with a modest SET integrated amp, the combination sounded to my ears much more musical and enjoyable than my other friend's Magicos with 6-figure amps. But that is just my preference.

Magazines are the bane of hifi. Consider their reviews as merely advertising the product.

For example, check out Roy Gregory’s hilarious reason on this forum for making excuses for a $200000 amp.

If only more people realised just how these mags operate and in some cases how utterly corrupted their journalists are. Hey ho. You can take a horse up water…

 

[andromedaaudio]

One is a magazine-reading audiophile who is only interested in Wilsons, Tidals, Magicos etc. The other is a music lover

 

[Lagonda]

Btw, if you met your Zu friend online, it is not a she, it is actually a guy on this forum who pretends to be a she to attract men to Zus

Marc and his silly hobbies !

 

[spiritofmusic]

It's a full time job, and not a pleasant one, keeping up w Ked's imagination.

 

[Atmasphere]

What does 30 Ohms bring to the party?

In addition to lower distortion, far less sensitivity to speaker cable construction. Some amps in the old days used to have 32 Ohm taps- this reduced the turns ratio on the output transformer a lot, increasing its bandwidth.

 

[microstrip]

I won’t go around this again because I already demonstrated to you in a previous thread (or forum) that there are a number of manufacturers making “big bottle” SETs with bandwidths beyond 50khz and some to 100Khz. So, please put away your default tropes...that one just isn’t true. Amps from Aries Cerat, NAT, Ayon are just a few that are sufficiently extended.

Can you point us to some measurements of these SET extending to 100 kHz? The only reference I found was the NAT Sel Mk2 - 100kHz at -14.2 dB (Hifi News review).

 

[DasguteOhr]

When i need more power, i use my diy kit amp stereo 60 from audio workshop from 90ties push pull el34 in triode mode 17watt. Amazing transformers, low distorsion and a good damping factor
No set amp i build or owened had that amazing sound.

I recduce global feedback to 5db runs stable

 

[jeff1225]

Btw, if you met your Zu friend online, it is not a she, it is actually a guy on this forum who pretends to be a she to attract men to Zus

Catfishing with Zu….sounds like a podcast.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Catfishing with Zu….sounds like a podcast.

Yep, that's GUARANTEED to get more women into the hobby.

 

[adrianywu]

@adrianywu Your speakers are interesting...if you are inclined to share more about the build please do so!

Pretty simple really. I designed them with the philosophy of maximum sensitivity, no passive crossover and time alignment. The mid-range rectangular wood horns and the bass reflex cabs were built by a craftsman in Japan who has since retired. The horn has a cut off of 400Hz and an exponential expansion. I use field coil drivers from Classic Audio of Michigan. For the tweeters, I try to avoid metal diaphragms. I started with a pair of EV T350, and changed to the Acapella ion tweeters about 6 years ago. This made the biggest improvement in my system so far. It must be heard to be believed. These weightless tweeters are so fast that only field coil drivers can keep up. I cross over the tweeters at 7K, the woofers at 500hz. I use an Accuphase F25 analogue three way crossover. The tweeters and midranges are physically time aligned using REW software.

 

[jespera]

Im still a bit flappergasted by this stenheim experience. They sounded so sh!te that im starting to think that they’re specifically designed to rip people off. Not only for the crazy money they cost, but also because youll never be happy with them. Then youll go to the dealer and the dealer will say “thats because you need a bigger more expensive amp/dac/cables/feet/whatever”.

It’s the hifi dealer’s wet dream.

 

[morricab]

Im still a bit flappergasted by this stenheim experience. They sounded so sh!te that im starting to think that they’re specifically designed to rip people off. Not only for the crazy money they cost, but also because youll never be happy with them. Then youll go to the dealer and the dealer will say “thats because you need a bigger more expensive amp/dac/cables/feet/whatever”.

It’s the hifi dealer’s wet dream.

Interesting you experience. I have heard them many times, living here in Switzerland, and I would not call any of the experiences Shite; however, they also didn't convince me to buy them either...