David Karmeli’s Bionor/Lamm/AS-2000 Audio System

[FLHX84]

Welcome to WBF!

Congratulations, Michael, on getting Bionors!

Can you tell us about your listening room and your audio components, please?

Hi Ron,

thank you very much for your kind words and your welcome... I use the Bionors at the moment in my office, the room is large, around 50 square meter with circa 3,40 meter room height...

To drive the Bionors there are two audio chains there: A Garrard 301 with grease bearing and Ortofon RF-309 tonearm with SPU A, Jorgen Schou step-up transformers, Shindo Mazeris Bellevus preamp and Shindo Palmer power amps with Western Electric VT-52 DHT's or two Telefunken V69 power amps, push-pull class A with F211a power tubes, driven by a Topping E50 DAC for streaming...

At home there are several audio chains, in my listening room mainly JBL 4350 studio monitors, biamped with EAR 509 and 549 power amps, Audio Research active tube crossover, EAR 912 preamp and EMT R80, Garrard 301 or Thorens TD-124 turntables, a second chain with JBL Olympus, driven bei La Maison de L'Audiophile 300B power amps etc... In the living room I use JBL DD-66000 Everest with Sun Audio 300B parallel single ended monos (all Tamura iron) or McIntosh MC-3500 power amps from the sixties if I need more power, preamp and DAC is an AMR DP-777, phono pre is AMR PH-77, turntables La Platine Verdier, Micro RX-5000 with FR-66S and EMT 927... In the dining room resides the JBL Paragon with period correct amplification, McIntosh MC-75 power amps, C-22, MR-71 and Luxman PD-444... In the small library are Yamaha NS-1000M with Yamaha B-2, C-2, T-2 an Luxman PD-310...

All together too much audio gear, especially turntables, the future will be reduction and concentration on the essential...

Best regards

 

[FLHX84]

The Bionor are front loading horns, though rather shallow with not a huge mouth.

Congratulations FLHX84. Great find. The one pair I’ve heard is simply phenomenal in its system context. What is in the rest of your system?

Hi Peter,

thank you for your kind words, for the rest of the system see the post above...

Best regards

Michael

 

[FLHX84]

Most intrigued by your name FLHX84 - front loaded horn? Are you using them for bass?

Hi LL21,

indeed I'm enjoying the Bionors, they are surprisingly good, I didn't expect that, even without an aditional subwoofer for bass...

FLHX refers to a specific motorcycle that I ride since 2001, a Shovelhead Electra Glide from 1984 designated "FLHX"...

Best regards

Michael

 

[LL21]

The Bionor are front loading horns, though rather shallow with not a huge mouth.

Congratulations FLHX84. Great find. The one pair I’ve heard is simply phenomenal in its system context. What is in the rest of your system?

Thank you. Makes sense.

 

[LL21]

Hi LL21,

indeed I'm enjoying the Bionors, they are surprisingly good, I didn't expect that, even without an aditional subwoofer for bass...

FLHX refers to a specific motorcycle that I ride since 2001, a Shovelhead Electra Glide from 1984 designated "FLHX"...

Best regards

Michael

Wow! What a coincidence! I am enjoying reading about horns particularly the bigger ones on WBF and have recently heard the new Avantgarde Trios with bass horns. So starting to find more common ground with big horns. I had heard Cessaro Betas + horn subs and the Cessaro Liszt as well smaller horns before. I preferred cones for what they do well at that like-for-like size level. But as you are able to go physically bigger in size, then I am intrigued by what I have heard a little of in the bigger Avantgarde Trios + basshorns.

So I can only imagine with your absolutely enormous Bionors can do. Look forward to reading more when you get some time!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron,

thank you very much for your kind words and your welcome... I use the Bionors at the moment in my office, the room is large, around 50 square meter with circa 3,40 meter room height...

To drive the Bionors there are two audio chains there: A Garrard 301 with grease bearing and Ortofon RF-309 tonearm with SPU A, Jorgen Schou step-up transformers, Shindo Mazeris Bellevus preamp and Shindo Palmer power amps with Western Electric VT-52 DHT's or two Telefunken V69 power amps, push-pull class A with F211a power tubes, driven by a Topping E50 DAC for streaming...

At home there are several audio chains, in my listening room mainly JBL 4350 studio monitors, biamped with EAR 509 and 549 power amps, Audio Research active tube crossover, EAR 912 preamp and EMT R80, Garrard 301 or Thorens TD-124 turntables, a second chain with JBL Olympus, driven bei La Maison de L'Audiophile 300B power amps etc... In the living room I use JBL DD-66000 Everest with Sun Audio 300B parallel single ended monos (all Tamura iron) or McIntosh MC-3500 power amps from the sixties if I need more power, preamp and DAC is an AMR DP-777, phono pre is AMR PH-77, turntables La Platine Verdier, Micro RX-5000 with FR-66S and EMT 927... In the dining room resides the JBL Paragon with period correct amplification, McIntosh MC-75 power amps, C-22, MR-71 and Luxman PD-444... In the small library are Yamaha NS-1000M with Yamaha B-2, C-2, T-2 an Luxman PD-310...

All together too much audio gear, especially turntables, the future will be reduction and concentration on the essential...

Best regards

WOW!

Thank you for listing for us those systems and all of those components!

 

[Carlos269]

Hi Ron,

thank you very much for your kind words and your welcome... I use the Bionors at the moment in my office, the room is large, around 50 square meter with circa 3,40 meter room height...

To drive the Bionors there are two audio chains there: A Garrard 301 with grease bearing and Ortofon RF-309 tonearm with SPU A, Jorgen Schou step-up transformers, Shindo Mazeris Bellevus preamp and Shindo Palmer power amps with Western Electric VT-52 DHT's or two Telefunken V69 power amps, push-pull class A with F211a power tubes, driven by a Topping E50 DAC for streaming...

At home there are several audio chains, in my listening room mainly JBL 4350 studio monitors, biamped with EAR 509 and 549 power amps, Audio Research active tube crossover, EAR 912 preamp and EMT R80, Garrard 301 or Thorens TD-124 turntables, a second chain with JBL Olympus, driven bei La Maison de L'Audiophile 300B power amps etc... In the living room I use JBL DD-66000 Everest with Sun Audio 300B parallel single ended monos (all Tamura iron) or McIntosh MC-3500 power amps from the sixties if I need more power, preamp and DAC is an AMR DP-777, phono pre is AMR PH-77, turntables La Platine Verdier, Micro RX-5000 with FR-66S and EMT 927... In the dining room resides the JBL Paragon with period correct amplification, McIntosh MC-75 power amps, C-22, MR-71 and Luxman PD-444... In the small library are Yamaha NS-1000M with Yamaha B-2, C-2, T-2 an Luxman PD-310...

All together too much audio gear, especially turntables, the future will be reduction and concentration on the essential...

Best regards

I would like to see some pictures of the speakers set up in your office. Considering the logistics involved, you accomplished the tasks of transportation, installation and setup in short order. Glad that you are enjoying them. If possible, please post a YouTube video of the system playing in your room. Would love to hear them.

 

[morricab]

Wow! What a coincidence! I am enjoying reading about horns particularly the bigger ones on WBF and have recently heard the new Avantgarde Trios with bass horns. So starting to find more common ground with big horns. I had heard Cessaro Betas + horn subs and the Cessaro Liszt as well smaller horns before. I preferred cones for what they do well at that like-for-like size level. But as you are able to go physically bigger in size, then I am intrigued by what I have heard a little of in the bigger Avantgarde Trios + basshorns.

So I can only imagine with your absolutely enormous Bionors can do. Look forward to reading more when you get some time!

You should try to hear the Acapella Hyperion…this does more what you like in your cone speaker and yet does most of what you liked in the horns.

 

[FLHX84]

I would like to see some pictures of the speakers set up in your office. Considering the logistics involved, you accomplished the tasks of transportation, installation and setup in short order. Glad that you are enjoying them. If possible, please post a YouTube video of the system playing in your room. Would love to hear them.

Hi Carlos,

will post better photos and a video on YouTube next week… I made the photos attached just after the initial setup… The transportation wasn’t so complicated thanks to the efforts of the seller… And I was lucky, that the Telefunken V69 amps that I restored years ago are a perfect match for the Bionors…

Best regards

Michael

 

[LL21]

You should try to hear the Acapella Hyperion…this does more what you like in your cone speaker and yet does most of what you liked in the horns.

I have always respected your ear and discernment. I was just saying to Ron that my gut over the last 12 months has been that horns are probably the ultimate for me...except that the SIZE required to do what I would aspire to is LARGE. And thus the other designs have caught up over the years such that for a like-for-like size, other designs (cones, panels with cones) are doing MORE for me in overall performance than the comparably sized footprint/size horns I have heard (Cessaro Liszt and Cessaro Beta plus bass horns for example).

The reason I like the XLFs is because I think it is excellent in all areas (though not exceptional, class leading in comparison with Arrakis or big Genesis, etc)...and it is compact by footprint and the height is not an issue.

Thus, to your point, the Acapella Hyperions are basically the same footprint but much taller so manageable with our 3.3m height ceilings. And if they produce significantly more/greater scale and ease with better more coherent micro-nuance, well, then that is interesting.

The only question is how much better they might be...I have always tried to do significant rather than incremental upgrades. Daewoo DVD player to Zanden 4-box digital. 1994 vintage Wilson to the more recent XLF.

I have been reading up on the Destination Audio Malta and heard the Avantgarde Trios several weeks ago, for example...but both require a significant step up in space. I know you like the Living Voice Olympians...but those require a huge footprint as well...and arguably greater cubic area.

 

[bonzo75]

I was just saying to Ron that my gut over the last 12 months has been that horns are probably the ultimate for me...except that the SIZE required to do what I would aspire to is LARGE. And thus the other designs have caught up over the years such that for a like-for-like size, other designs (cones, panels with cones) are doing MORE for me in overall performance than the comparably sized footprint/size horns I have heard (Cessaro Liszt and Cessaro Beta plus bass horns for example).

the Liszt is a very poor speaker. The beta might sound good if dialled in like tang’s gamma II. The rest of the above quoted , as you said, is more gut (speculation) on your part.

 

[LL21]

the Liszt is a very poor speaker. The beta might sound good if dialled in like tang’s gamma II. The rest of the above quoted , as you said, is more gut (speculation) on your part.

Thanks. That is helpful. The Betas were at Audio Exotics, who are generally quite exacting in their setups, so hopefully it was a meaningful demonstration of what they are about. Good to know about Liszt.

I want to hear the Destination Audio speakers and the AG Trios (again) to keep learning. The Living Vox Olympians of legend, the massive Bionors and the big 4-piece horn system (incl FLH?) you have written quite a lot about are also intriguing.

 

[morricab]

Thanks. That is helpful. The Betas were at Audio Exotics, who are generally quite exacting in their setups, so hopefully it was a meaningful demonstration of what they are about. Good to know about Liszt.

I want to hear the Destination Audio speakers and the AG Trios (again) to keep learning. The Living Vox Olympians of legend, the massive Bionors and the big 4-piece horn system (incl FLH?) you have written quite a lot about are also intriguing.

If you are thinking of going all the way then the Aries Cerat Contendo has to be considered, it might surpass all other commercial offerings. I haven’t heard it but in 2019 AC had Symphonia coupled with large horn subs and the dynamics and resolution were off the chart!

Neverminding what Ked says about Cessaro, what did you think of the Liszt and Beta compared to day AG Trios? I ask because Cessaro has had Liszt in their lineup now for a long time. If what was really so poor why would it still be offered? I have heard Trios both wow and greatly disappoint…I think setup is not that easy and electronics choice crucial.

 

[LL21]

If you are thinking of going all the way then the Aries Cerat Contendo has to be considered, it might surpass all other commercial offerings. I haven’t heard it but in 2019 AC had Symphonia coupled with large horn subs and the dynamics and resolution were off the chart!

Neverminding what Ked says about Cessaro, what did you think of the Liszt and Beta compared to day AG Trios? I ask because Cessaro has had Liszt in their lineup now for a long time. If what was really so poor why would it still be offered? I have heard Trios both wow and greatly disappoint…I think setup is not that easy and electronics choice crucial.

Thank you. I have read about that one...also absolutely HUGE. The sphere by itself is 5 feet across..1.5 meters, plus a pair of subtowers where each is the size of a Wilson XLF.

As for Cessaro Listz, I admit I was disappointed. For starters, listening to deep house to test it...its bass output did not seem to be able handle to pressure...curious, I put my finger on the side of the cabinet because it just felt out of control...whether or not it affected the sound, the cabinet was definitely vibrating back and forth a LOT. A much louder levels, I have done the same with Arrakis, and was stunned to find my pants flapping in the bass...and the cabinet was completely inert...so much so, that if I could not hear nor feel the bass...I literally would not have known by touching the Arrakis cabinet only centimeters away from the 15" cone.

As for Betas, I did not find them to be worth the space-take. I preferred the big 4-tower Tidal Sunray system at Audio Exotics in comparison with their Cessaro Beta + subs. The Betas played the music and I 'got' the sense of detail but for some reason the music seemed hard...detailed but hard. Not sure why exactly. Source was the 4-box Zanden which I know well, so would not expect that.

Whereas the AG Trios had a sense of scale that eclipsed BOTH of these, and despite having Emm Labs MTRX monos (not sure why given they are something 1000 watts per channel...are they magic at 0.25 watts? No idea)...I found they conveyed breathe, nuance and life-like scale in a way that was effortless. I found the treble glare-y by a touch which at this level of performance was unwanted...but I could also sense just from the sheer effortless and easy way it had with detail, bass, full-spectrum of sound, that it was an electron microscope that could easily be adjusted to suit.

I asked in fact about the treble, and the dealer acknowledged by nodding and simply saying "they are INCREDIBLY hard to dial in perfectly".

I have never since thought about the Cessaro Listz or Betas + horns...or a few others I have heard over the years (not many)...the AG Trios are the first time I have found sound that is consistent with what I read about them from those who are enormous fans of horns.

The problem is they are HUGE on floorspace...horns plus bass horns eat up a lot of a living room. Still...the remain on the list of things to keep in the back of my mind for the long term.

Destination Audio (Malta?), your AC Contendo, AG Trio, Living Vox Olympian...and it seems your Acapella Hyperion. No doubt more to come...

I wonder what would happen with highly sensitive horns and the Robert Kodas...any thoughts there?

 

[bonzo75]

I wonder what would happen with highly sensitive horns and the Robert Kodas...any thoughts there?

The Kondo was quite better than the Koda on efficient Sigma MAAT speakers

 

[morricab]

Thank you. I have read about that one...also absolutely HUGE. The sphere by itself is 5 feet across..1.5 meters, plus a pair of subtowers where each is the size of a Wilson XLF.

As for Cessaro Listz, I admit I was disappointed. For starters, listening to deep house to test it...its bass output did not seem to be able handle to pressure...curious, I put my finger on the side of the cabinet because it just felt out of control...whether or not it affected the sound, the cabinet was definitely vibrating back and forth a LOT. A much louder levels, I have done the same with Arrakis, and was stunned to find my pants flapping in the bass...and the cabinet was completely inert...so much so, that if I could not hear nor feel the bass...I literally would not have known by touching the Arrakis cabinet only centimeters away from the 15" cone.

As for Betas, I did not find them to be worth the space-take. I preferred the big 4-tower Tidal Sunray system at Audio Exotics in comparison with their Cessaro Beta + subs. The Betas played the music and I 'got' the sense of detail but for some reason the music seemed hard...detailed but hard. Not sure why exactly. Source was the 4-box Zanden which I know well, so would not expect that.

Whereas the AG Trios had a sense of scale that eclipsed BOTH of these, and despite having Emm Labs MTRX monos (not sure why given they are something 1000 watts per channel...are they magic at 0.25 watts? No idea)...I found they conveyed breathe, nuance and life-like scale in a way that was effortless. I found the treble glare-y by a touch which at this level of performance was unwanted...but I could also sense just from the sheer effortless and easy way it had with detail, bass, full-spectrum of sound, that it was an electron microscope that could easily be adjusted to suit.

I asked in fact about the treble, and the dealer acknowledged by nodding and simply saying "they are INCREDIBLY hard to dial in perfectly".

I have never since thought about the Cessaro Listz or Betas + horns...or a few others I have heard over the years (not many)...the AG Trios are the first time I have found sound that is consistent with what I read about them from those who are enormous fans of horns.

The problem is they are HUGE on floorspace...horns plus bass horns eat up a lot of a living room. Still...the remain on the list of things to keep in the back of my mind for the long term.

Destination Audio (Malta?), your AC Contendo, AG Trio, Living Vox Olympian...and it seems your Acapella Hyperion. No doubt more to come...

I wonder what would happen with highly sensitive horns and the Robert Kodas...any thoughts there?

Thx for the interesting updates! Trios highs will for sure sound better than with Emm labs…an off the wall choice if ever there was one. For sure you RK amps will be better (but I would think the K70 better still on that kind of speaker). If I had trios and didn’t want pure tubes , for whatever reason, I would get the new Aries Cerat Quintessence monos or the Ypsilon Single ended hybrid monos…both sound fantastic.
I will be the first admit that I have not been a fan of any of the big Cessaros…but their new small Opus 1 with subs has been very good two years running in Munich.
I was quite impressed with the Hyperion at Munich this year…it sounded quite realistic…RK would also probably work well on them.
I would only go AC with Contendo to get what AC is really about. LV I would use Kondo’s best stuff.

 

[Amir]

David: Vintage JBL/TAD/Siemens horn + Lamm
Kevin: Living Voice Vox Olympian + Kondo 300b

You can ask Kevin (UK) and David (Utah) to visit them and listen to their audio systems.

If you like the sound of an audio system and decide to buy it in my idea it is better to buy both amplifier and speaker.

 

[Carlos269]

Hi Carlos,

will post better photos and a video on YouTube next week… I made the photos attached just after the initial setup… The transportation wasn’t so complicated thanks to the efforts of the seller… And I was lucky, that the Telefunken V69 amps that I restored years ago are a perfect match for the Bionors…

Best regards

Michael


View attachment 120574View attachment 120575

Nice! Thanks for the pictures. Look forward to listening to the videos.

 

[LL21]

The Kondo was quite better than the Koda on efficient Sigma MAAT speakers

Interesting...which Kondo and which Koda?

 

[bonzo75]

Interesting...which Kondo and which Koda?

koda K70, Kondo Gakuon 211 amp