Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[spiritofmusic]

So, are we saying stiff interconnects/power leads will negate the effects of active isolation only when they're making contact with the shelf, or there will even be negative remote effects from how they are supported elsewhere? My tt has an outboard motor with thinnish power cord, hopefully no issue, but the Straingauge energiser has 2 psus with stiff unyielding cords and it would be an effort to 'detach' these off the shelf esp. since the psu's are dead light. Cd player, pre and monoblocks all have stiff cables and cords.
I know you guys out there are fastidious to the nth degree in getting this stuff optimal, but it seems like reverse logic to spend megabucks on specialist isolation that purports to be all-encompassing in it's effects, to find that it's capabilities are seriously hampered by...another part of the setup. There is NO way I'd ever hang stuff up on wires, not unless I get a year's therapy paid for in advance !

 

[Mike Lavigne]

So, are we saying stiff interconnects/power leads will negate the effects of active isolation only when they're making contact with the shelf, or there will even be negative remote effects from how they are supported elsewhere? My tt has an outboard motor with thinnish power cord, hopefully no issue, but the Straingauge energiser has 2 psus with stiff unyielding cords and it would be an effort to 'detach' these off the shelf esp. since the psu's are dead light. Cd player, pre and monoblocks all have stiff cables and cords.
I know you guys out there are fastidious to the nth degree in getting this stuff optimal, but it seems like reverse logic to spend megabucks on specialist isolation that purports to be all-encompassing in it's effects, to find that it's capabilities are seriously hampered by...another part of the setup. There is NO way I'd ever hang stuff up on wires, not unless I get a year's therapy paid for in advance !

only that the effect of cables must be considered in any suspension/isolation situation. the higher the resolution, the more isolation, the more it's a concern.

turntables typically are not very affected by cables since phono cables and even most power cords are not issues since they are not big and stiff, or the turntable itself has an umbilical to the power supply.

preamps are the big ones, along with power amps, since both have multiple cables and some of them are big and stiff.

so just be aware of the issue. it can affect many different types of isolation depending on how it works.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yah Christian, when are you going to swap out those crappy amps of your's?

when you are considering purchasing -2- $10k amplifier isolation devices that have a 15.7" x 17.7" footprint, one should simply try to view around the next corner and have a plan. there are many many nice amps with larger footprints.

such as the 'next' upgrade for Pass Labs.

i meant no disrespect to his amps.

added note;

OTOH taking a look at the pictures of Christian's amps and amp stands, i respect that a pair of TS-150's would be a very elegant solution. i would likely go that way too assuming the dollars work. the AVI approach would not fit into the look and feel of his system very well.

 

[rockitman]

Yah Christian, when are you going to swap out those crappy amps of your's?

lol !

 

[rockitman]

OTOH taking a look at the pictures of Christian's amps and amp stands, i respect that a pair of TS-150's would be a very elegant solution. i would likely go that way too assuming the dollars work. the AVI approach would not fit into the look and feel of his system very well.

The dollars could work...going elegant.

 

[spiritofmusic]

So, I'm still unsure - if one has a preamp with 7 or 8 i/cs and sim. no. power cords, is it enough to isolate them from the shelf, or is it more a matter of how they lay away from the shelf transmitting tension/stiffness back into the component? In my rig, there's just no way I can 'destress' the cables sufficiently, most snake around each other and push tightly down the back of the rack (max. 3' gap here to wall), and must send tension into, and 'trap', the preamp. Mike's thought that this would be compromising sounds right: as I said before, pretty pointless in a total solution costing $10-12k. Tbh, a theoretical complete set of active shelves to incl tt/cd/phono/pre/pre psu/2xmonos/balanced transformer, would be more than the total cost of my system, and maybe a sign of full-on audio upgrade OCD! Such worry about cable interaction means I'm likely to stick to my original concept of max 2 shelves viz. tt and cd, both sporting the least no. of cables/cords, these being the least stiff also.

 

[FrantzM]

So, I'm still unsure - if one has a preamp with 7 or 8 i/cs and sim. no. power cords, is it enough to isolate them from the shelf, or is it more a matter of how they lay away from the shelf transmitting tension/stiffness back into the component? In my rig, there's just no way I can 'destress' the cables sufficiently, most snake around each other and push tightly down the back of the rack (max. 3' gap here to wall), and must send tension into, and 'trap', the preamp. Mike's thought that this would be compromising sounds right: as I said before, pretty pointless in a total solution costing $10-12k. Tbh, a theoretical complete set of active shelves to incl tt/cd/phono/pre/pre psu/2xmonos/balanced transformer, would be more than the total cost of my system, and maybe a sign of full-on audio upgrade OCD! Such worry about cable interaction means I'm likely to stick to my original concept of max 2 shelves viz. tt and cd, both sporting the least no. of cables/cords, these being the least stiff also.

Hi

A thought. This isolation business is getting quickly mighty expensive... What with basically a >$10K under each piece of equipment .. Why not build a separate room for the equipment and just leave the speakers in the listening room. Don't laugh and it isn't a sneer ... I read some decades in a bok by Jean Hiraga , " Les Haut-Parleurs" (Loudspeakers) or it migth have been in "la Nouvelle Revue Du Son" of such rooms by Japanese Audiophiles.
For the record I have an immense doubt of the value of such devices under most electronics save , maybe, some tubes ... Yes many will claim incredible improvements. Allow me to remain skeptical.

 

[rockitman]

Hi

A thought. This isolation business is getting quickly mighty expensive... What with basically a >$10K under each piece of equipment .. Why not build a separate room for the equipment and just leave the speakers in the listening room. Don't laugh and it isn't a sneer ... I read some decades in a bok by Jean Hiraga , " Les Haut-Parleurs" (Loudspeakers) or it migth have been in "la Nouvelle Revue Du Son" of such rooms by Japanese Audiophiles.
For the record I have an immense doubt of the value of such devices under most electronics save , maybe, some tubes ... Yes many will claim incredible improvements. Allow me to remain skeptical.

In your home or a building, ect there is going to be vibration throughout the entire structure. There is no escape. Moving source to a separate room will help with acoustic noise, but not structural and environmental vibrations.

 

[Steve williams]

In your home or a building, ect there is going to be vibration throughout the entire structure. There is no escape. Moving source to a separate room will help with acoustic noise, but not structural and environmental vibrations.

But what's moving if you are using solid state amps or am I missing something

 

[rockitman]

But what's moving if you are using solid state amps or am I missing something

caps are very sensitive to vibration along with circuit bds, the transformer ect. As I mentioned previously, stillpoints ultra 5's provided a substantial improvement in sound under my amps. I can only imagine what active isolation could do.

 

[Steve williams]

thx for the explanation.

 

[rockitman]

thx for the explanation.

Trust me, your Lamms and you would love them....

 

[FrantzM]

In your home or a building, ect there is going to be vibration throughout the entire structure. There is no escape. Moving source to a separate room will help with acoustic noise, but not structural and environmental vibrations.

I can understand the need to remove everything deleterious from the reproduction, methink, this is getting a little paranoid... RF is another thing that need to be dealt with and may have more effects than structural vibrations, the effect of which could be so minute as to not matter even in the most sensitive applications ... Will we have to listen to music in a Faraday cage? I think we are going into overkill .. But that is just me. If it pleases and insure enjoyment by all means...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Frantz, thank you for along side me adding a note of balance. These things are designed for predominantly scientific instruments that just have to be insulated. By the very nature of listening to audio, direct sound, standing waves, bass nodes are in the equation, surely more complex than any lab situation, and imho complete isolation is near to unattainable. Additionally, tt's are producing, as part of their very design, loads of vibrations, and the stylus produces music via vibrations in the groove. So, how does active leave some of these alone, and attenuate others? Much easier to see how passive dealing with ground borne vibrations is a single application that can and should be maximised. That's not to say they don't perform better than passive isolation, I'm sure they don't, it's just this 'universal panacea' explanation that leaves me scratching my head. And I really baulk at the fact that comprehensive as these devices purport to be, they have to be so carefully managed that even simply stiff cables spoil their operation - I've never heard of passives falling foul of this.
You can guess the guys here will be onto RF once vibration is covered.

 

[Bill Hart]

I can understand the need to remove everything deleterious from the reproduction, methink, this is getting a little paranoid... RF is another thing that need to be dealt with and may have more effects than structural vibrations, the effect of which could be so minute as to not matter even in the most sensitive applications ... Will we have to listen to music in a Faraday cage? I think we are going into overkill .. But that is just me. If it pleases and insure enjoyment by all means...

Problem solved:
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/

 

[PeterA]

But what's moving if you are using solid state amps or am I missing something

Steve, I don't know how to explain it, but the preloaded Vibraplanes made a substantial improvement under my SS Pass amps. A rough guess is about 2/3 the improvement that I got under my turntable, and in the same areas of bass impact, definition and extension and overall clarity. Imaging and soundstage also improved. Really striking.

Syntax over on Audiogon has Vibraplanes under his Lamms and he told me about them. Check out his virtual system page.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Correction, meant to say I'm sure active DOES perform better than passive. For me, power has been the Holy Grail, all improvements have worked, but I've been more hit than miss on ANY discernable improvement with different racks (save for the Symposium).

 

[cjfrbw]

Sorry, nobody will ever convince me that solid state devices require isolation. That is where my subjectivist interface shatters solidly on the objectivist. Tubes, turntables, maybe CD players because they spin and read data. SS isolation is something that should be readily measure-able, comparing waveforms and all, and I have never seen it.

Testimonialize all you want, SS isolation is underwater real estate to me.

 

[rockitman]

Sorry, nobody will ever convince me that solid state devices require isolation. That is where my subjectivist interface shatters solidly on the objectivist. Tubes, turntables, maybe CD players because they spin and read data. SS isolation is something that should be readily measure-able, comparing waveforms and all, and I have never seen it.

Testimonialize all you want, SS isolation is underwater real estate to me.

I guess you didn't realize that capacitors are microphonic and sensitive to vibration, not to mention the vibrations caused by power transformers. Your statement holds no water. I have Big SS amps and have a passive solution at the moment and it made a significant difference. But please continue to share your inexperience in the matter....we are all ears...

 

[cjfrbw]

Capacitors can be microphonic, to a much lesser extent than tubes, but if that is significant in solid state audio components it has never been demonstrated that I can ever recall, but please do correct me if I am wrong, I am always happy to learn, but that one requires some data input, not just golden ear power.

I have heard it stated by other skeptics that if solid state electronics were significantly influenced by vibration, that NASA never would have gotten a rocket off the ground.

I bit of counterpoint from time to time is not necessarily a bad thing.