I don't mind a counterpoint...but when it's based on no first hand experience that conflicts with my direct experience in my system, I have to take issue.
Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.
- Thread starter rockitman
- Start date
I don't mind a counterpoint...but when it's based on no first hand experience that conflicts with my direct experience in my system, I have to take issue.
This thread is still one of my favorites of recent memory.
Why? Because it brings to the table some fundamental and physical audio laws.
I am discarding myself from the financial aspect of it, but that is all; everything else makes total sense to me.
Also, this site here is about the Best, so ....
Yeah, if you put those Herzan active stabilizer tables under your entire audio/video system components,
like I know some people with at least fifty (50) components in their home theater room, including the speakers,
well, 50 times $12,000 is a lot of dough!
BUT! If the sound and picture quality are improved to a higher level of true and proven satisfaction, then that's what the Best is all about.
What Mike and Christian are saying, and Peter is confirming as well; not only is in accordance with my understanding of audio physics,
but also with this entire vibrating planet of ours. ...I bet those, built in much larger scales, would provide some tremendous benefit to larger buildings and skyscrapers during earthquakes and tornadoes.
I consider this thread one of the most interesting and important of them all. ...And I'm beyond the 'money equation' limit.
In life's improvement, as in audio, there is no limit.
Why? Because it brings to the table some fundamental and physical audio laws.
I am discarding myself from the financial aspect of it, but that is all; everything else makes total sense to me.
Also, this site here is about the Best, so ....
Yeah, if you put those Herzan active stabilizer tables under your entire audio/video system components,
like I know some people with at least fifty (50) components in their home theater room, including the speakers,
well, 50 times $12,000 is a lot of dough!
BUT! If the sound and picture quality are improved to a higher level of true and proven satisfaction, then that's what the Best is all about.
What Mike and Christian are saying, and Peter is confirming as well; not only is in accordance with my understanding of audio physics,
but also with this entire vibrating planet of ours. ...I bet those, built in much larger scales, would provide some tremendous benefit to larger buildings and skyscrapers during earthquakes and tornadoes.
I consider this thread one of the most interesting and important of them all. ...And I'm beyond the 'money equation' limit.
In life's improvement, as in audio, there is no limit.
I have never noticed the slightest alterations in the picture of my home theatre projector due to any kind of air or structure borne vibrations, even during the most boomy bass passages. That is all solid state, and a 120 inch "readout" if you will. I can thump my solid state amps quite soundly during playback and without and can't hear a thing through the system.
Tubes and turntables I can ping quite easily.
Tubes and turntables I can ping quite easily.
The resolution isn't high enough to really matter. Audio is far different and much more susceptible to vibration and resonance. The more resolving a system, the more it matters if you are interested in maximizing the affected component's performance.
I mentioned video too because why not. ...A Blu-ray player has mechanical parts, a front projector has fans, and all that vibrating jazz when things are warming up (light bulb) and spinning (Blu-ray disc, and fans).
So yeah, I bet the Herzan can also improve things here. Now if only someone .... :b
So yeah, I bet the Herzan can also improve things here. Now if only someone .... :b
most high end solid state gear has resonance control designed into it in various forms. the better gear have very solid cabinets. none of that is accidental as circuits 'sing' with the music if they are allowed to. it's a pretty basic thing and not really anything that is very debatable. and these are mostly things the user does not really even see.
maybe you are just trolling and are not really serious. it's hard to imagine you actually believe what you are writing.
I would agree that tubes and turntables are degrees more susceptible to resonance, but certainly not that solid state is immune to it. no doubt each piece of gear varies as to how much they are affected by various isolation solutions. and as Christian mentions, the higher resolution of the gear and system, the more important and the larger payoff there is for good isolation solutions.
you have to approach the subject with an open mind and open ears.
I can't imagine anything more resolving than a stax headphone attached to an solid state amplifier with a transformer output. I can turn things up until I hear white noise grain, and then physically pummel the SS amp/preamp, and I can't hear a thing through the headphones. I certainly don't hear the pummeling when the music is playing. The tubed amps/preamps can be made to ring like bells. That actually makes the hypothesis test-able, like sounding the turntable and its stand.
Be careful about over using that "high resolution" card. It is simultaneously an insult and an intimidation that you are talking to somebody who has never heard such, and is susceptible with some not so subtle snobby insinuations, or their inverse, that one agrees and are now in the "high resolution" club. I find that more than a little manipulative.
I would agree that Stax headphone listening is not the same as listening through the speakers, rather I would posit that it more like a "worst case" scenario. If the inherent isolation is that good, what is external isolation going to add?
Be careful about over using that "high resolution" card. It is simultaneously an insult and an intimidation that you are talking to somebody who has never heard such, and is susceptible with some not so subtle snobby insinuations, or their inverse, that one agrees and are now in the "high resolution" club. I find that more than a little manipulative.
I would agree that Stax headphone listening is not the same as listening through the speakers, rather I would posit that it more like a "worst case" scenario. If the inherent isolation is that good, what is external isolation going to add?
so U base all of your listening impressions and speculation off of head phones ? I had a pair of stax back in college for obvious reasons in the 1980's. Can listening is no substitute.
i've owned the Stax O2 mK1 007's and 009's, with both solid state and tubed amps....both which were better with isolation underneath. no doubt the Stax headphones are high, even at their best very high, resolution. and i'm not doubting that you use high resolution gear. i'm only questioning how much you have investigated isolation products. having high resolution and trying to improve it are two different things. unless you take the time to try different isolation products on solid state gear how can you be so argumentative about the results of those that do try it? and if you have please tell us about how specific products did not work for you.
honestly nothing personal intended.
Basically, I am finding it more and more difficult to isolate the "information" from the "informercial" in some of these threads. There is very little in the way of rational contrapuntal input.
Fine, there are guys with piles of money and they like to spend it on snazzy stuff. Sure, there are incremental improvements from working on a system, I have been doing it for years with varying degrees of success and failure. Fine if you want high status, big spender elitism or whatever, but honestly every sodding tweak CANNOT have the enormous effects that are touted for these things, especially from the already "high resolution" systems.
There are times when I would actually like to hear what was paid for these items, how much it varies from retail, and what conversations were had with the manufacturers before they were touted, and if there were discounts, are they available to everybody?
I would like to hear with a huge sigh of relief that, "I bought this because it is exclusive, not many people can afford it, I love the way it looks and smells, everybody is really, really impressed, it is going to make me feel so important for a while, but it doesn't otherwise do a thing for the sound."
I think I would die and go to heaven.
My apologies for any aspersions cast, but there, I finally said it with all the gory details.
You all can kick me off the board, if you want, but man oh man, it does become a grind.
Fine, there are guys with piles of money and they like to spend it on snazzy stuff. Sure, there are incremental improvements from working on a system, I have been doing it for years with varying degrees of success and failure. Fine if you want high status, big spender elitism or whatever, but honestly every sodding tweak CANNOT have the enormous effects that are touted for these things, especially from the already "high resolution" systems.
There are times when I would actually like to hear what was paid for these items, how much it varies from retail, and what conversations were had with the manufacturers before they were touted, and if there were discounts, are they available to everybody?
I would like to hear with a huge sigh of relief that, "I bought this because it is exclusive, not many people can afford it, I love the way it looks and smells, everybody is really, really impressed, it is going to make me feel so important for a while, but it doesn't otherwise do a thing for the sound."
I think I would die and go to heaven.
My apologies for any aspersions cast, but there, I finally said it with all the gory details.
You all can kick me off the board, if you want, but man oh man, it does become a grind.
so other than the fact that we are all delusional and spend too much money for your sensibilities, that there is a big conspiracy, and that we are all egotists and morally corrupt, you are all good.
is that about it?
at least that is a more logical reason for posting what you did than trying to defend solid state not being helped by isolation products.
why would we want to do that ? Plus I like birds...Is that your parrot ? Talk about commitment....
http://www.naturescapes.net/portfolios/portfolio.php?cat=18810
Steve,
If you pick a solid state amplifier and replace the speakers by power resistors most probably you will be able to listen to the music being played coming at a very low level and distorted from the amplifier - if you have noise you are having vibration. I noticed it several times, as I always use this method to burn-in power amplifiers. Very often the most offending component are the power transistors - some metal case types vibrate a lot. Active platforms with servos have a double function - they isolate, but they also self-cancel the vibrations induced in the platform by the load. In this sense they work like a perfect solid ground for absorbing vibrations of equipment.
For some for very good information about vibration in equipment read the Goldmund mechanical grounding white paper downloads.goldmund.com/downloads/.../goldmund__white_paper.pdf?
Frantz,
I will not laugh as I also read it. Big horns in the room and all the equipment in another. The >$10K device is just the brute force solution. You pay a lot, but you can be sure that you are using the best existing device for this purpose, as it isolates and cancels vibrations in six axes over a large band of frequencies. Most probably you can have 95% of their performance with a much less expensive system, but then you have to do your research and experimentation until you find the adequate system and device for your specific component. Think about the >$10K as the price you have to pay to avoid the expectation bias associated to this type of long and boring tests. I think anyone will agree that blind testing types of platforms is not easy.
"Gentlemen, let's have some order please!" There's no doubt that big spending on audio leads to bigger and bigger spending to eek out that last 10%/1%/0.1%. Mike, Christian and Peter do it, and me too, I'm sure. I do have some issues with these upgrades being SO dramatic each time they're introduced. However I guess everyone's experience is different: for me, power has been a totally fruitful area to address (I live in a highly-mains polluted semi-industrial area of London, with internet booster stations, 24/7 broadband and wifi operating in my building, and big generators on 24/7 locally) - my mains prior to balanced power fluctuated +/- TEN % moment to moment, with balanced power now no more than+/- 0.5%.
Conversely, my building is a reinforced concrete industrial loft with solid floors, and would take an earthquake to budge, and isolation experiments over time have had negligible effect (no improvement to be had from Grand Prix Monaco racks etc), until my Symposium Isis, which has been somewhat interesting. Not sure if failed alternatives except for the Isis means there is more performance to be had from active, but could be.
So, my "Eureka!" moments have been restricted to move to balanced power, and this took 3 months after a very poor start. Everything else ie racks, cabling, room acoustics, have provided satisfaction, not elation, and as many moves sideways/backwards as forwards.
YET Mike, Christian et al convey earth shattering elation with almost every round of system wide improvements, in the case of this thread, active isolation.
The reason I'm a little cool on this subject, is that too much is being attributed that active seems to cure, and yet I can't see how audio with moving parts causing vibration like tts and cdps, and especially vibration at the stylus tip can be selectively protected by active while external influences are eliminated. Passive yes, cut the system off from the floor, but active, cut it off from the AIR, and ITSELF, and vibrations that cause music, LEAVE alone.
And for the high cost of these things, easily corrupted effectiveness from eg cable interaction, poor interactivity with passive isolation etc, and hence they are more setup dependent than the equipment they are deemed to be helping. These mitigate possibly against their adoption.
I would love to do an effective a-b, on tt and cdp, which would be the limit of my budget, but I still can't fathom out how to do this effectively without dismantling/resiting of components, which in a major way could scupper the comparison.
Please Mike/Christian, don't take this as personal criticism, just that at $10-12k a pop, and with such vaunted claims, these items demand analysis.
Conversely, my building is a reinforced concrete industrial loft with solid floors, and would take an earthquake to budge, and isolation experiments over time have had negligible effect (no improvement to be had from Grand Prix Monaco racks etc), until my Symposium Isis, which has been somewhat interesting. Not sure if failed alternatives except for the Isis means there is more performance to be had from active, but could be.
So, my "Eureka!" moments have been restricted to move to balanced power, and this took 3 months after a very poor start. Everything else ie racks, cabling, room acoustics, have provided satisfaction, not elation, and as many moves sideways/backwards as forwards.
YET Mike, Christian et al convey earth shattering elation with almost every round of system wide improvements, in the case of this thread, active isolation.
The reason I'm a little cool on this subject, is that too much is being attributed that active seems to cure, and yet I can't see how audio with moving parts causing vibration like tts and cdps, and especially vibration at the stylus tip can be selectively protected by active while external influences are eliminated. Passive yes, cut the system off from the floor, but active, cut it off from the AIR, and ITSELF, and vibrations that cause music, LEAVE alone.
And for the high cost of these things, easily corrupted effectiveness from eg cable interaction, poor interactivity with passive isolation etc, and hence they are more setup dependent than the equipment they are deemed to be helping. These mitigate possibly against their adoption.
I would love to do an effective a-b, on tt and cdp, which would be the limit of my budget, but I still can't fathom out how to do this effectively without dismantling/resiting of components, which in a major way could scupper the comparison.
Please Mike/Christian, don't take this as personal criticism, just that at $10-12k a pop, and with such vaunted claims, these items demand analysis.
Very cool-headed post. I thank you for it. The emphasis is mine.
My take: I use foobar and it is very easy to do ABX with foobar and it is free. I have tried myself and several friends and we have had a hard time distinguishing between mp3 256 K and CD on some pieces. On ABX I have found that when someone is trying to hear differences, same pieces IOW same exact file being played at two different times result in the listeners hearing them as different ... On the system Source to transducers and room and electronics, etc .. same day a few minutes or seconds apart. However hard we may deny it, fight it, sneer at it, roll our eyes over it, WE CAN BE FOOLED, our ears can be fooled and repeatedly. With such background, isn't it a very important question to ask even in the casual and hopefully relaxed atmosphere of an Internet Forum: Are those improvements, deemed so momentous, that huge? A more vexing question are they even real? I am honestly asking the question and asking my fellow audiophiles not to take offense: We, audiophiles as a whole are eager to hear increasing improvements... We augment reality with our expectations thus the "night and days", "can't compare", "blew out of the windows" that litter audiophile comments on gear a cooler approach often find those differences from subtle to non-existent. I have put my electronics under vibraplane and there NO improvement in my case and yes, I was using a system of sufficient resolution and yes I took time to listen. Under a TT massive, repeatable differences, repeatable is the key word here .. They are there every person in the room knows, it is not same... Under the electronics ... I already documented it.
I have no doubt that active works. I can understand why it works. When it comes to electronics, the results in my experience haven’t been that big or even real .. Yes there are vibration occurring inside electronics .. but does their reduction if any, matter? And if it does at the elevated level the concerned systems already are does it make that much of a difference? Really? Cool-headed really? Back then there was a writer on TAS, Enid Lumley and she did come to a point where the fabric she wore to listen may have mattered.. Aren’t we going there slowly ?
Those, to me are valid questions and should not be seen as trolling. If indeed they make a vast improvement, not merely a difference under careful analysis, such can only advance the state or reproduction in our homes and the increase interest can only drive the prices down to the benefits of all audiophiles and music lovers. Retreating and again with all due respect
Last edited:
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
IMO it seems that perhaps it is a blessing in disguise that most don't have such "high resolving systems" because as this plays out, it seems that only those with such systems can hear the improvements. Do you guys truly believe that only your systems can hear such differences.
If this post were made to me I would be offended every bit as much as Carl
FWIW I have known Carl for years and have been to hear his system countless times and I must say that his system is every bit as resolving as any that I have heard
Finally, I know that in an enthused user's posts many times these do come across as a bit of an infomercial and gorilla advertising. There is a fine line here and TBH I feel that this line has been breached
Really ... A reproduction system that isolates from the room is no substitute? Do you honestly think that removing the room from the reproduction doesn't improve things? What do you think room treatments accessories are trying to accomplish? Moreover do you really think loudspeakers and that includes yours are more resolving than a Stax ESL Headphone?
so why didn't you quote this too???
so make your case for advertising Steve. or withdraw the accusation. where are you coming up with that???
from Carl's resentment filled post?
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Mike
relax. There is no accusation but people are hitting some nerves. I am coming up with nothing and will offer my full apology. Where I see people becoming unsettled is the constant comment that only highly resolving systems will achieve such benefit or at least be able to hear such benefits. Such comments IMO can rattle a few members and this is showing.I will only follow from the sidelines but will ask one last question....
why shouldn't this device make any improvement under video components that have moving components? It makes sense to me
relax. There is no accusation but people are hitting some nerves. I am coming up with nothing and will offer my full apology. Where I see people becoming unsettled is the constant comment that only highly resolving systems will achieve such benefit or at least be able to hear such benefits. Such comments IMO can rattle a few members and this is showing.I will only follow from the sidelines but will ask one last question....
why shouldn't this device make any improvement under video components that have moving components? It makes sense to me
Similar threads
