Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[LL21]

FYI, I'm not sure if Townshend Audio changed their platforms but years ago I found they actually degraded the sound of amplifiers placed on them. I hypothesized that it was because the Sinks were made of steel and that interacted with the amplifier's transformers affecting the sound. Perhaps it was a function of tube amps, older transformers or who knows what. I wonder if Townshend has changed the material. For **** and giggles, take a magnet to the Sink and see if it's magnetic.

Interesting...I have been going on lately about creating 'isolation sandwiches' for each of my components. On the Velodyne and the Amp, I have been using Artesania or Stillpoints Ultra 5s on top...with a heavy weight on top of each damper to add mass. (Auralex isolation platform underneath.)

After discussing with a few people, I have decided to go with 20-30kg (45-66lbs) of brass weights on each for this reason...non-magnetic. Iron would easily be cheaper, but unfortunately magnetic and not knowing the effect of putting it on top of a velodyne with a big magnet inside or on top of the amp...I decided to run with Brass.

 

[mep]

How does a system that was already supposedly magnificent keep getting *more* magnificent and not just more magnificent, but an order of magnitude more magnificent? I would hope that some of the people that come and listen to the already over-the-top/it just doesn't get any better than this system are the type of listeners who aren't afraid to speak up and tell the emperor he has no clothes if he standing there with his dangling parts hanging out. Mike, whether you realize it or not, you are sounding like a carnival barker/infomercial spokesperson for Herzan. I almost feel like I need to put on some hip waders before I step into this thread. How about posting a couple of videos that show your system playing the same song on your NVS, one with the Herzan under the NVS and one without the Herzan under the NVS? If there is truly an order of magnitude difference, it should shine through even on the video.

The bottom line with the Herzan is that while it can be effective from preventing ground borne vibrations from reaching the table and keeping the table level, it can't prevent airborne vibrations from reaching the arm, cartridge, platter, and plinth which is where it is more sensitive. I don't know of an effective practical method for isolating components from airborne vibrations as long as they are in the same room with the speakers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This improvement does not surprise me Mike. I first installed the lowly Townshend Seismic Sink under my old turntable before I upgraded to the Vibraplane. I now have Seismic Sinks under each of my five boxes of electronics. (Vibraplanes under amps and turntable). Though these passive air devices are not as sophisticated as something like the Herzan, they do make some difference at a substantially lower cost. And the 1 1/2" profile is excellent in tight shelf space.

So if I can notice an improvement under each component with the TSS, I can only imagine what the Herzan can do under your electronics. And my equipment is all SS. I found my TSS for about $200 a piece and now have five of them plus the three Vibraplanes.

I must say, though, that your frequent pronouncements about the unbelievable improvements that each of your recent purchases seems to make toward your overall musical enjoyment makes me wonder if there is any limit to how far even the most elaborate audio systems sound from the real thing. You just recently waxed lyrically about the Durand Saphire mounting plate, the Anna cartridge, the Telos tonearm, the Durand Record Weight, now these Herzans (even though the Wave Kinetic isolation had been a game changer). I honestly don't know where all of this is going. And all of this stuff will be replaced with yet newer stuff that will be even more revelatory at some point.

Perhaps you are learning, and sharing with the rest of us, that the better your system gets, the further it is away from the sound of real music because you are learning first hand how everything can be improved, and often quite dramatically and perhaps now questioning just how much more some of your stuff can be improved. If isolation can make such a dramatic improvement, then surely there are other things in the chain that can be addressed. Most of us don't and can't realize how limited our systems are because we aren't lucky enough to have a seemingly endless upgrade path ahead of us.

I happen to think that power delivery, isolation and the speaker/listener/room relationship are the three areas that are most often overlooked in serious systems. You have addressed most of these with very serious solutions and soon will have your speakers located in the optimum location. I look forward to the report of that improvement.

Perhaps I'm now rambling a bit. This is just my observation from reading your posts, and I don't really yet know if constantly learning that what we used to thing was great is suddenly not so good anymore is a good or bad thing. And I hope you don't take offense to these observations. I mean no disrespect.

The more money you seem to spend (invest) in your system, the more you, and we, are discovering just how much further there is to go. It is certainly sobering.

sobering is a good word. and I had a bit of that feeling too reflecting on exactly what you are talking about this morning trying for perspective.

being self aware and objective about yourself is sometimes hard. you get excited and gushing relating what your ears and emotions are telling you. then you step back and add up those moments and try and add it all up and you almost are intimidated by what you have done.

did all that stuff really happen?

what would an objective observer think about it all?

it is sobering and I cannot fault anyone being cynical about it. that is reasonable. I am self aware, although not maybe as much as I could be all the time.

is the accumulation of all these over-the-top additions real?

so upon reflection I do sit back and listen.

yes; they are real, at least to me and my ears. but I get how anyone might view things differently from their own perspectives.

I have taken some leaps, but they have been leaps well thought out over long periods of time.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

How does a system that was already supposedly magnificent keep getting *more* magnificent and not just more magnificent, but an order of magnitude more magnificent? I would hope that some of the people that come and listen to the already over-the-top/it just doesn't get any better than this system are the type of listeners who aren't afraid to speak up and tell the emperor he has no clothes if he standing there with his dangling parts hanging out. Mike, whether you realize it or not, you are sounding like a carnival barker/infomercial spokesperson for Herzan. I almost feel like I need to put on some hip waders before I step into this thread. How about posting a couple of videos that show your system playing the same song on your NVS, one with the Herzan under the NVS and one without the Herzan under the NVS? If there is truly an order of magnitude difference, it should shine through even on the video.

fair enough, I understand your perspective.

The bottom line with the Herzan is that while it can be effective from preventing ground borne vibrations from reaching the table and keeping the table level, it can't prevent airborne vibrations from reaching the arm, cartridge, platter, and plinth which is where it is more sensitive. I don't know of an effective practical method for isolating components from airborne vibrations as long as they are in the same room with the speakers.

actually the Herzan active isolation does not care where the resonance is coming from. whether from the rack below, the gear sitting on it, your finger tapping the platform, or the air pressure waves; it senses them all as resonance to be cancelled out. it reacts to input from it's sensors.

 

[treitz3]

actually the Herzan active isolation does not care where the resonance is coming from. whether from the rack below, the gear sitting on it, your finger tapping the platform, or the air pressure waves; it senses them all as resonance to be cancelled out. it reacts to input from it's sensors.

That is too cool.

Tom

 

[LL21]

In truth, I think our minds have adapted very well when listening to playback...we fill in the gaps. its why people enjoy listening to the radio and sing along. I think if you actually had a 15-piece ensemble in one room...and the system in the other...it would be great to compare thru the door. And really give a sense right then and there as to how far we have yet to go.

2-man acoustic guitar? Maybe...but even 1 sax and 1 drumset would make it very difficult to compete. Make it a 7-man ensemble and few if any systems even thru a closed door would fool people into thinking...you've got an ensemble in there? Live band practice is a totally different level of dynamics than anything I've heard up thru the crazy, OTT $1M systems.

So as we read about people's system improvements that continue to move along that long road to reality...I am not bothered nor surprised by the level of steps people hear...I have experienced some myself and written about them as well, and remain convinced we truly have a long, long way to go to live.

 

[mep]

Mike-The Herzan can't cancel out air pressure waves that hit the turntable-that's impossible. It can react to them after the fact if they cause any displacement large enough for the sensors to feel, but the Herzan damn sure can't cancel out the effects of the airborne vibrations before they strike the table.

 

[mep]

That is too cool.

Tom

And impossible too.

 

[rockitman]

The bottom line with the Herzan is that while it can be effective from preventing ground borne vibrations from reaching the table and keeping the table level, it can't prevent airborne vibrations from reaching the arm, cartridge, platter, and plinth which is where it is more sensitive. I don't know of an effective practical method for isolating components from airborne vibrations as long as they are in the same room with the speakers.

Have you bothered to read what active stabilization does ? By the sound of this comment you haven't read a thing about it.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Mike-The Herzan can't cancel out air pressure waves that hit the turntable-that's impossible. It can react to them after the fact if they cause any displacement large enough for the sensors to feel, but the Herzan damn sure can't cancel out the effects of the airborne vibrations before they strike the table.

I am curious though about how the active isolation circuitry really works--as obviously it does. By that I mean it seems that you're always kind of applying negative/positive feedback to cancel out the not so good vibrations.

 

[mep]

Christian, please point me to the part where it explains how active stabilization can shield a component from airborne vibration.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Christian, please point me to the part where it explains how active stabilization can shield a component from airborne vibration.

all you have to do is to stand next to the Herzan with the active isolation engaged and view the LCD readout with the lines of noise displayed. this display shows the noise which is being cancelled. with no music playing there are little jiggles to the lines constantly. that is the background noise of the room and system. then clap your hands loudly and those lines jump with the clap. that is air pressure waves hitting the sensors and being cancelled.

like any other resonance, there is not necessarily 100% cancellation, but clearly the air born resonance is getting sensed and cancelled to some degree.

as far as the word 'shield', i'm not sure that fits. the Herzan can only deal with resonance it senses. you would have to have an acoustic enclosure around the turntable to 'shield' it. to the degree that air borne resonance hits the turntable and causes resonance down thru the turntable and is sensed by the sensors thru the shelf it can act to cancel that resonance.

 

[rockitman]

Christian, please point me to the part where it explains how active stabilization can shield a component from airborne vibration.

I will quote snipets of info relavent to the question at hand:

Complete Isolation Performance: Internal feedback loop damps all mechanical resonances

Performance Details:

The performance graph listed above is to be considered for all TS Series isolation tables. The transmissibility graph is a conservative estimate of performance in any given lab environment and pertains to all six translational and rotational modes of vibration (all six degrees of freedom).

• Active Vibration Isolation from 0.7 - 1,000 Hz
• Passive Vibration Isolation from 1,000 Hz and Beyond
• 90% Vibration Attenuation at 3.5 Hz
• 99% Vibration Attenuation at 10 Hz
• 99.9 Vibration Attenuation at 20 Hz and Beyond

http://www.herzan.com/products/active-vibration-control/ts-series.html#TS MODELS

MULTIPLE AXIS ISOLATION

Passive isolation systems are usually designed to isolate only Z axis vibrations. So they are unable to handle horizontal vibrations. In the cases that they can also isolate horizontal vibrations, a different isolation mechanism is usually employed. For example, an air table could use an air spring to isolate Z axis vibrations and use rubber damping for horizontal vibrations. When distinct isolation mechanisms are employed, the system is unable to adequately compensate for vibrations that are not purely X, Y, or Z. When looking at a passive system’s transmissibility graph, one should note which axis is being measured. Troublesome vibrations are rarely purely along one axis, so this is an important shortcoming of passive isolation systems.


Table Stable active isolation systems use the same sensing and damping mechanism to isolate in six degrees of freedom (X, Y, Z, roll, pitch, and yaw) and the sensors communicate with one another. This makes it capable of providing the same high level of isolation across all axes.


ISOLATION AT THE LEVEL OF THE INSTRUMENT

Table Stable active isolation senses and damps vibrations at the level of the instrument. This allows the systems to damp some of the noise that occurs at the instrument, including acoustic noise coupled into the casing, air movements, parasitic noise from cabling, and even some of the noise created by the instrument itself. Passive isolation systems only damp ground-borne vibrations.

http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/active-vs-passive.html

DESCRIPTION

Acoustic noise refers to waves of pressure travelling through air or other gases. Sound is acoustic energy in the audible range, i.e. acoustic energy capable of being heard.

EFFECTS

Once acoustic noise couples into an instrument (or any mechanical structure, for that matter), it becomes structural vibration. Therefore, the effects of environmental acoustic noise are very similar to, and often indistinguishable from, structural vibrations.

http://www.herzan.com/applications/noise-source/acoustics.html

See the comparison table at the link below between passive and active designs.


Noise Isolated: Ground-borne vibrations, instrument, and acoustic noise

http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/active-vs-passive.html

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike-The Herzan can't cancel out air pressure waves that hit the turntable-that's impossible. It can react to them after the fact if they cause any displacement large enough for the sensors to feel, but the Herzan damn sure can't cancel out the effects of the airborne vibrations before they strike the table.

Mark,

I respect that you have doubts about the reaction time of the Herzan active isolation. how could it possibly react fast enough to cancel resonance? wouldn't it always be behind the resonance and actually soften the sound by delaying the reaction and overshooting?

I had these same doubts myself which I addressed in my first reaction to the TS-140 under the NVS. I had been afraid it could not keep up.

it turns out that they are indeed fast enough.

maybe read this info on piezoelectric sensors and it will help for you to understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric_sensor

 

[mep]

all you have to do is to stand next to the Herzan with the active isolation engaged and view the LCD readout with the lines of noise displayed. this display shows the noise which is being cancelled. with no music playing there are little jiggles to the lines constantly. that is the background noise of the room and system. then clap your hands loudly and those lines jump with the clap. that is air pressure waves hitting the sensors and being cancelled.

like any other resonance, there is not necessarily 100% cancellation, but clearly the air born resonance is getting sensed and cancelled to some degree.

as far as the word 'shield', i'm not sure that fits. the Herzan can only deal with resonance it senses. you would have to have an acoustic enclosure around the turntable to 'shield' it. to the degree that air borne resonance hits the turntable and causes resonance down thru the turntable and is sensed by the sensors thru the shelf it can act to cancel that resonance.

And that was my point. I read the Herzan paper. There is a 5-20 millisecond delay from the time the Herzan table senses a vibration before it can cancel it out. This platform was primarily designed for sensitive electronic instruments that are sensitive to structure borne vibrations that are typical of factory/laboratory environments. These building vibrations typically occur between 5-30 Hz. The primary purpose of these platforms is to prevent structure borne vibrations from reaching what is sitting on top of the platform. There is no way this table can prevent airborne vibrations from striking your arm, cartridge, and plinth. By the time that platform reacts to those airborne vibrations, the signal that was effected by them has already left the tonearm cable and is in your preamp.

So, the biggest effect the Herzan will have underneath a turntable is to prevent structure borne vibrations from reaching the base of the table. If you have springy floors and/or you can feel your room/house shake when traffic goes by, this could make a big difference in the quality of your bass. Whatever deleterious effects that are caused by airborne vibrations can't be dealt with as effectively since the cancellation is happening after the vibrations have already struck the arm, cartridge, and plinth and the signal from the cartridge has already moved on.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

And that was my point. I read the Herzan paper. There is a 5-20 millisecond delay from the time the Herzan table senses a vibration before it can cancel it out. This platform was primarily designed for sensitive electronic instruments that are sensitive to structure borne vibrations that are typical of factory/laboratory environments. These building vibrations typically occur between 5-30 Hz. The primary purpose of these platforms is to prevent structure borne vibrations from reaching what is sitting on top of the platform. There is no way this table can prevent airborne vibrations from striking your arm, cartridge, and plinth. By the time that platform reacts to those airborne vibrations, the signal that was effected by them has already left the tonearm cable and is in your preamp.

So, the biggest effect the Herzan will have underneath a turntable is to prevent structure borne vibrations from reaching the base of the table. If you have springy floors and/or you can feel your room/house shake when traffic goes by, this could make a big difference in the quality of your bass. Whatever deleterious effects that are caused by airborne vibrations can't be dealt with as effectively since the cancellation is happening after the vibrations have already struck the arm, cartridge, and plinth and the signal from the cartridge has already moved on.

the Herzan active isolation has limitations. it can only make things better; much, much, better. but not perfect.

 

[mep]

Mark,

I respect that you have doubts about the reaction time of the Herzan active isolation. how could it possibly react fast enough to cancel resonance? wouldn't it always be behind the resonance and actually soften the sound by delaying the reaction and overshooting?

I had these same doubts myself which I addressed in my first reaction to the TS-140 under the NVS. I had been afraid it could not keep up.

it turns out that they are indeed fast enough.

maybe read this info on piezoelectric sensors and it will help for you to understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric_sensor

I totally agree that the Herzan would be simply wonderful for cancelling out structure borne vibrations from reaching the bottom of your turntable and working their way up through the turntable. Structure born vibrations tend to be steady-state in the environments the Herzan is typically used in and once the Herzan has locked on to them and cancelled them out, the device sitting on top of the Herzan should not be affected by the structure borne vibrations. I would think that the people who would most benefit from the Herzan sitting under their table are those who have structure borne vibration issues in their house/apartment/listening room.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I totally agree that the Herzan would be simply wonderful for cancelling out structure borne vibrations from reaching the bottom of your turntable and working their way up through the turntable. Structure born vibrations tend to be steady-state in the environments the Herzan is typically used in and once the Herzan has locked on to them and cancelled them out, the device sitting on top of the Herzan should not be affected by the structure borne vibrations. I would think that the people who would most benefit from the Herzan sitting under their table are those who have structure borne vibration issues in their house/apartment/listening room.

But VLF vibrations can travel very long distances ergo I think we're all slaves to them An extreme example being earthquake seismic waves.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Mep, I concur. I contributed a little while ago that I'm sure active isolation is MUCH better than passive in isolating the tt from ground borne vibrations - 6 axes of isolation, and more instantaneous reaction time has got to be much more effective than my old standard fixed rack, or somewhat more effective than my Symposium Isis that via ball bearings/opposing magnets does a great job in the horizontal plane.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that my 5 layers of isolation in my Isis could well be a better passive solution than Mike's solid Adona rack using Wave Kinetics passive isolating footers. Hence, when he then uber upgraded to active isolation he got a more massive upgrade than I might be likely to get going to active from Symposium.
From my discussion with one of active isolation co. people, it's dealing with floor borne (we can all agree on this); but doesn't purport to deal with direct airborne ie sound from the spkrs (your point, and mine, mep) - however it does purport to isolate from bass nodes and standing waves that 'collect' or 'pool' in the room. Imho, I still think this is dealt with more thru floor borne isolation since such subsonic waves are likely to energise the floor more than the walls, structures and the air itself. So now we have active isolating from the floor in two ways, ground borne vibration eg footfall, traffic, building creep, neighbours - AND standing waves etc attenuated via the floor. If these waves are indeed< 5Hz or even <1Hz, active will be MUCH better suited than passive.
BUT, vibrations CREATED by the tt eg motor torque, spinning platters, arm pivoting/ or cd eg spinning disc, laser sled movement, surely cannot be attenuated totally since they're continuous and a NORMAL function of the device.
And no-one has sufficiently explained how the most delicate vibration of all must NOT be inhibited ie movement of stylus in groove which picks up the info sent to the phono. Just HOW does active 'know' what is 'bad' or 'good' vibrations?
SO in conclusion, if active is dealing with subsonics in the room from standing waves etc, IN ADDITION TO regular ground borne noise, this will give it thee edge over passive. How much, YMMV. In my case, I'm using Spatial Computer Black Holes to attenuate nodes/standing waves, and my building is as solid as they come, so a positive result for active demo over my Symposium would be an eye (ear) opener.

 

[microstrip]

Mark,

I respect that you have doubts about the reaction time of the Herzan active isolation. how could it possibly react fast enough to cancel resonance? wouldn't it always be behind the resonance and actually soften the sound by delaying the reaction and overshooting?

I had these same doubts myself which I addressed in my first reaction to the TS-140 under the NVS. I had been afraid it could not keep up.

it turns out that they are indeed fast enough.

Mike,

The answer comes from control and feedback theory - the systems we are addressing have time constants of a the order of the millisecond in the worst case and modern electronics can react in tens of microsecond - fast enough for this purpose. IMHO the tricky part in your table is coordinating the system for the six axes - any student of basic control theory could design an nice active system for one single axis.