Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[microstrip]

(...) I read the Herzan paper. There is a 5-20 millisecond delay from the time the Herzan table senses a vibration before it can cancel it out. (...)

Mep,
Can you point me a link to this paper?

 

[rockitman]

Mark,

I respect that you have doubts about the reaction time of the Herzan active isolation. how could it possibly react fast enough to cancel resonance? wouldn't it always be behind the resonance and actually soften the sound by delaying the reaction and overshooting?

I had these same doubts myself which I addressed in my first reaction to the TS-140 under the NVS. I had been afraid it could not keep up.

it turns out that they are indeed fast enough.

maybe read this info on piezoelectric sensors and it will help for you to understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectric_sensor

The reaction time is 10-20 milliseconds...while this is a very slight lag to real time play, the real issue is the accumulation buildup of vibration that begins to resonate at various frequencies. That is where the active isolation comes into play to dampen these vibrations and keep resonance buildup/accumulation at an absolute minimum.

 

[rockitman]

Mep,
Can you point me a link to this paper?

http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/active-vs-passive.html

 

[mep]

But VLF vibrations can travel very long distances ergo I think we're all slaves to them An extreme example being earthquake seismic waves.

Myles-I agree with your point and I hope I don't have to deal with the effects from an earthquake. My listening room is 9' underground and my floor is concrete and the concrete floor has a thick pad and carpet on top of it. The poured concrete foundation wall of my listening room is separated from the foundation of my main house by 3' of dirt. That was necessary as a result of safety precautions for the guy who had to stand in between the foundation forms and my main house foundation. The result of that 3' of separation between my listening room foundation wall and the foundation for my main house that is filled in with dirt is that it prevents sound from traveling into my main house. When I talk about my listening room being acoustically isolated from my main house, that is what I'm referring to. It's pretty neat to have my system jamming away, walk upstairs and open the door to my main house (which puts you in my kitchen) and hear basically nothing and just as important, feel nothing. For those of you who constantly hear "turn that down!" you can understand what a blessing it is to have the ability to listen to your system anytime you want at any level you want. You don't have to wait for those precious moments when the wife and kids are gone so you can listen to your system how you really want to.

Based on the fact that my listening room is 9' underground and all of my gear is spiked onto the thick concrete floor (not to mention that my table is sitting on top of the VPI TNT rack that has about 100 lbs of lead shot in the legs), I don't think that my system would benefit as much from the Herzan table as other people whose systems live in a much more lively structure borne noise environment.

 

[rockitman]

I don't think that my system would benefit as much from the Herzan table as other people whose systems live in a much more lively structure borne noise environment.

you can un-justify it all you want. My structure, concrete basement floor is far from lively compared to a suspended wood floor typically found in homes. You will never know until you try it. If it's out of the budget, don't lose sleep over it.

 

[microstrip]

The reaction time is 10-20 milliseconds...while this is a very slight lag to real time play, the real issue is the accumulation buildup of vibration that begins to resonate at various frequencies. That is where the active isolation comes into play to dampen these vibrations and keep resonance buildup/accumulation at an absolute minimum.

Thanks for pointing me the link, Mike,
Rockitman,

The 10-20 milliseconds is the settling time - I think it is an indication of the recovery time of the system after an extreme disturbance, not reaction time to normal operation. Although I do not know the exact terms used by Hertzan or other manufacturers to define it, just compare with the value of 2-10 seconds given for a passive. Can you consider that the passive table will cancel any vibration after 2-10 turns of the LP?

 

[mep]

OK. First man who has his entire stereo system sitting on top of Herzan platforms *wins*. Seriously, I'm sure the Herzan will make some improvements to a turntable. How much improvement will be a function of the environment the table is situated in. If I was going to dump $12K or whatever portion of that figure that you guys really paid into my system right now, a Herzan table isn't where I would put it. But then, I don't have a system that easily cost six figures and I'm looking around to see where else I could spend some money in order to wring out some more improvement.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks for pointing me the link, Mike,
Rockitman,

The 10-20 milliseconds is the settling time - I think it is an indication of the recovery time of the system after an extreme disturbance, not reaction time to normal operation. Although I do not know the exact terms used by Hertzan or other manufacturers to define it, just compare with the value of 2-10 seconds given for a passive. Can you consider that the passive table will cancel any vibration after 2-10 turns of the LP?

that puts things is perspective for sure.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Based on the fact that my listening room is 9' underground and all of my gear is spiked onto the thick concrete floor (not to mention that my table is sitting on top of the VPI TNT rack that has about 100 lbs of lead shot in the legs), I don't think that my system would benefit as much from the Herzan table as other people whose systems live in a much more lively structure borne noise environment.

Mep,

Most of it also depends on the geological properties of the land where our house is built. Decades ago I spend some holidays in a solid modern villa (reinforced concrete building, the whole house was a solid block, as the zone was rather inclined). There were only a few houses built in the zone and the closest one was around one quarter of a mile away. Curiously in the basement we could hear noises coming from this house - the garage door and even very loud voices were heard as whispers. One day a local acquaintance who was also a geological engineer solved the mystery - all the zone was built over a large rock block that worked as sound conductor. The reinforced concrete filled with steel only helped picking the noise from the rock. At that time he also explained that many houses known for being haunted are just houses built in particular zones with micro-vibrations - these micro-vibrations, not perceptible by humans, induce stress in drawers or doors and move or open them, or emit strange noises terrifying their owners.

I have read this is one of the reasons why people build special deep damping zones bellow hard floors and other layers - to dissipate all vibrational energy that could enter the room. Sometimes rigid does not mean perfection.

 

[NorthStar]

This improvement does not surprise me Mike. I first installed the lowly Townshend Seismic Sink under my old turntable before I upgraded to the Vibraplane. I now have Seismic Sinks under each of my five boxes of electronics. (Vibraplanes under amps and turntable). Though these passive air devices are not as sophisticated as something like the Herzan, they do make some difference at a substantially lower cost. And the 1 1/2" profile is excellent in tight shelf space.

So if I can notice an improvement under each component with the TSS, I can only imagine what the Herzan can do under your electronics. And my equipment is all SS. I found my TSS for about $200 a piece and now have five of them plus the three Vibraplanes.

I must say, though, that your frequent pronouncements about the unbelievable improvements that each of your recent purchases seems to make toward your overall musical enjoyment makes me wonder if there is any limit to how far even the most elaborate audio systems sound from the real thing. You just recently waxed lyrically about the Durand Saphire mounting plate, the Anna cartridge, the Telos tonearm, the Durand Record Weight, now these Herzans (even though the Wave Kinetic isolation had been a game changer). I honestly don't know where all of this is going. And all of this stuff will be replaced with yet newer stuff that will be even more revelatory at some point

That is exactly the thing with everything in life, not just audio. :b

1. Perhaps you are learning, and sharing with the rest of us, that the better your system gets, the further it is away from the sound of real music because you are learning first hand how everything can be improved, and often quite dramatically and perhaps now questioning just how much more some of your stuff can be improved. If isolation can make such a dramatic improvement, then surely there are other things in the chain that can be addressed. 2. Most of us don't and can't realize how limited our systems are because we aren't lucky enough to have a seemingly endless upgrade path ahead of us.

1. You are absolutely right Peter!
2. And that's why we're here; to read what Mike has to say. ...And some friends are going over to his place to experience/confirm those fantastic audio discoveries. ...And not to forget Christian, and other collaborators of this thread with similar, but not as advanced and perfected, devices.
{And I bet that if we would have a videophile here at WBF like Mike is a true audiophile; we'd see a higher level of hi-def as well on the video side of the equation.}

...Herzan 'active' isolation platform. ...Created for ultra-precision chemistry and medicinal tools (microscopes), and now beneficial for audio components, and I bet too for video components as well. ...A microscope is for the eyes .... ...And I bet it would also be beneficial for telescopes, and snipers ....

I happen to think that power delivery, isolation and the speaker/listener/room relationship are the three areas that are most often overlooked in serious systems. You have addressed most of these with very serious solutions and soon will have your speakers located in the optimum location. I look forward to the report of that improvement.

Same here, I fully agree with you.

Perhaps I'm now rambling a bit. This is just my observation from reading your posts, and I don't really yet know if constantly learning that what we used to think was great is suddenly not so good anymore is a good or bad thing. And I hope you don't take offense to these observations. I mean no disrespect.

The more money (time) you seem to spend (invest) in your system, the more you, and we, are discovering just how much further there is to go. It is certainly sobering.

It's always good! :b

Makes total good sense too!

 

[mep]

Francisco, I agree with your point that you could have a house situated on land that has some strange acoustic properties. I think it would be far more common for people who live on busy streets with their houses situated close to the road and other houses to hear effects from their neighbors and the road noise. But that is why I previously stated that people who have lively structures will benefit the most from the tables. I'm sure there are some benefits to be had by all.

 

[LL21]

Thanks for pointing me the link, Mike,
Rockitman,

The 10-20 milliseconds is the settling time - I think it is an indication of the recovery time of the system after an extreme disturbance, not reaction time to normal operation. Although I do not know the exact terms used by Hertzan or other manufacturers to define it, just compare with the value of 2-10 seconds given for a passive. Can you consider that the passive table will cancel any vibration after 2-10 turns of the LP?

Hi Micro - interested in learning more. When you say a passive system has a reaction time of 2-10 seconds, are you referring to passive systems that drain vibration like Finite Elemente racks, or SRA Ohio Class platforms?

The reason I ask is I am wondering what happens if you clamp something completely in inert, elastomer covered vices...obviously passive, but it is preventing the chassis from moving [almost] at all. Is it better (in theory) to nearly instantaneously react to any vibration with a countermovement (the vibration equivalent of noise cancelling headphones)...or to prevent the device from moving almost at all in the first place, by clamping it in some form of well-designed vice?

 

[NorthStar]

all you have to do is to stand next to the Herzan with the active isolation engaged and view the LCD readout with the lines of noise displayed. this display shows the noise which is being cancelled. with no music playing there are little jiggles to the lines constantly. that is the background noise of the room and system. then clap your hands loudly and those lines jump with the clap. that is air pressure waves hitting the sensors and being cancelled.

like any other resonance, there is not necessarily 100% cancellation, but clearly the air born resonance is getting sensed and cancelled to some degree.

as far as the word 'shield', i'm not sure that fits. the Herzan can only deal with resonance it senses. you would have to have an acoustic enclosure around the turntable to 'shield' it. to the degree that air borne resonance hits the turntable and causes resonance down thru the turntable and is sensed by the sensors thru the shelf it can act to cancel that resonance.

Mike, would it be possible for you, if you don't mind your time, to provide a short video (youtube or any other) demonstrating this!

 

[LL21]

Mike, would it be possible for you, if you don't mind your time, to provide a short video (youtube or any other) demonstrating this!

Hey Northstar, a picture is worth a thousand words...a video a million. That said I have seen Audiocrack's Halcyonics in action. The platform has bars of lights that light up more or less, depending on how much vibration it is detecting. A clap makes the lights go crazy...quite cool. Its almost like the bars of lights you see when you are setting up a mike and clapping to see if the sound board is picking up the noise and working.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, would it be possible for you, if you don't mind your time, to provide a short video (youtube or any other) demonstrating this!

i will try to do this, the problem will be getting my camera to be able to get a readable picture of the small LCD sceen.

i'll have my son take a look at the data link/port on the back of the Herzan, maybe that will output the video of those lines. if so we can output that to a PC and video that much easier.

 

[NorthStar]

the Herzan active isolation has limitations. it can only make things better; much, much, better. but not perfect.

I totally agree; it can't make things more worst than what they originally are, but only better (improvement). ...And perfection is on that road, of improvement.

 

[NorthStar]

Mep,

Most of it also depends on the geological properties of the land where our house is built. Decades ago I spend some holidays in a solid modern villa (reinforced concrete building, the whole house was a solid block, as the zone was rather inclined). There were only a few houses built in the zone and the closest one was around one quarter of a mile away. Curiously in the basement we could hear noises coming from this house - the garage door and even very loud voices were heard as whispers. One day a local acquaintance who was also a geological engineer solved the mystery - all the zone was built over a large rock block that worked as sound conductor. The reinforced concrete filled with steel only helped picking the noise from the rock. At that time he also explained that many houses known for being haunted are just houses built in particular zones with micro-vibrations - these micro-vibrations, not perceptible by humans, induce stress in drawers or doors and move or open them, or emit strange noises terrifying their owners.

I have read this is one of the reasons why people build special deep damping zones bellow hard floors and other layers - to dissipate all vibrational energy that could enter the room. Sometimes rigid does not mean perfection.

You just hit a scientific fact here. ...You want your house built on its own "isolated" rock.

 

[NorthStar]

i will try to do this, the problem will be getting my camera to be able to get a readable picture of the small LCD sceen.

i'll have my son take a look at the data link/port on the back of the Herzan, maybe that will output the video of those lines. if so we can output that to a PC and video that much easier.

Sounds awesome Mike; take your time.

 

[LL21]

You just hit a scientific fact here. ...You want your house built on its own "isolated" rock.

Bob Ludwig used to have his Eggleston Ivy's on isolated poured cement foundations that went to bedrock or something extreme, didn't he?

 

[NorthStar]

Bob Ludwig used to have his Eggleston Ivy's on isolated poured cement foundations that went to bedrock or something extreme, didn't he?

I don't know Lloyd, but Bob is thee man! :b