Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[PeterA]

Peter,

The one thing to remember, passive systems only isolate one degree...the z axis. The active isolate in all 6 degrees.

http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/active-vs-passive.html

Christian, I don't believe this is the case. I just saw a demonstration of a Minus K BM-1 platform, which is a passive solution, isolating a turntable. In the video, the owner pushes the top plate in three directions. It isolates in both vertical and horizontal directions. That is three (3) degrees - up/down, left/right, front/back. I also think I saw something about it isolating in a horizontal rotational direction.

I just contacted Steve Klein of Sounds of Silence. He is the Vibraplane distributor. He confirmed my suspicion that the Vibraplane unit that I have which is the Benchmate 2210 also isolates in both the vertical and horizontal directions.

I don't know about other passive solutions. I'm not arguing that the passive Vibraplane is more effective at isolation than your active Herzan. It probably is not. I just want to clarify the point that not all passive systems "only isolate one degree...the z axis (vertical). There are at least two passive systems which isolate in at least three or more directions.

In the Vibraplane case, the amount of isolation differs between horizontal and vertical. I don't know about the Minus-K.

 

[rockitman]

Christian, I don't believe this is the case. I just saw a demonstration of a Minus K BM-1 platform, which is a passive solution, isolating a turntable. In the video, the owner pushes the top plate in three directions. It isolates in both vertical and horizontal directions. That is three (3) degrees - up/down, left/right, front/back. I also think I saw something about it isolating in a horizontal rotational direction.

I just contacted Steve Klein of Sounds of Silence. He is the Vibraplane distributor. He confirmed my suspicion that the Vibraplane unit that I have which is the Benchmate 2210 also isolates in both the vertical and horizontal directions.

I don't know about other passive solutions. I'm not arguing that the passive Vibraplane is more effective at isolation than your active Herzan. It probably is not. I just want to clarify the point that not all passive systems "only isolate one degree...the z axis (vertical). There are at least two passive systems which isolate in at least three or more directions.

In the Vibraplane case, the amount of isolation differs between horizontal and vertical. I don't know about the Minus-K.

That may be true, but that is 3 axis only. Vibration is not confined to these axis alone, hence pitch, yaw and roll along those axis better isolates and is the reason for isolation across six degrees of movement. The minus K looks like a more affordable solution. It is not going to do as well as the Herzan, IMO.

 

[Steve williams]

It is not going to do as well as the Herzan, IMO.

Christian, if this is the case and here is the $64 question what do you think you will hear with your Herzan that Peter won't with his Vibraplane

 

[rockitman]

Christian, if this is the case and here is the $64 question what do you think you will hear with your Herzan that Peter won't with his Vibraplane

nobody will know w/o experience hearing both in the same system. That said, I think the passive proponents are discounting the benefit of sub Hz isolation with zero resonance. Passive goes down to 4 hz best case and can amplify resonance should it occur in their particular system. The form factor of either the Minus K...too tall a shelf or the vibraplane with the added ballast weight and compressor along with needed bladder replacement down the road are things I wanted to avoid. You said it yourself Steve...why not go with best isolation that science/engineering has to offer ? The answer to that question is "Active" isolation.

 

[rockitman]

Christian, I don't believe this is the case. I just saw a demonstration of a Minus K BM-1 platform, which is a passive solution, isolating a turntable. In the video, the owner pushes the top plate in three directions. It isolates in both vertical and horizontal directions. That is three (3) degrees - up/down, left/right, front/back. I also think I saw something about it isolating in a horizontal rotational direction.

I just contacted Steve Klein of Sounds of Silence. He is the Vibraplane distributor. He confirmed my suspicion that the Vibraplane unit that I have which is the Benchmate 2210 also isolates in both the vertical and horizontal directions.

I don't know about other passive solutions. I'm not arguing that the passive Vibraplane is more effective at isolation than your active Herzan. It probably is not. I just want to clarify the point that not all passive systems "only isolate one degree...the z axis (vertical). There are at least two passive systems which isolate in at least three or more directions.

In the Vibraplane case, the amount of isolation differs between horizontal and vertical. I don't know about the Minus-K.

Thinking more about this and with regard to your situation, since the SME's are suspended, a passive solution is probably the best solution. The vibraplane won't fight with the turntable's own suspension...like an active solution may. This is good news...saves you a lot of money.

 

[Steve williams]

nobody will know w/o experience hearing both in the same system. That said, I think the passive proponents are discounting the benefit of sub Hz isolation with zero resonance. Passive goes down to 4 hz best case and can amplify resonance should it occur in their particular system. The form factor of either the Minus K...too tall a shelf or the vibraplane with the added ballast weight and compressor along with needed bladder replacement down the road are things I wanted to avoid. You said it yourself Steve...why not go with best isolation that science/engineering has to offer ? The answer to that question is "Active" isolation.

I am not disagreeing about the Herzan but if one is better than the other, they should sound different and that is why I suggested if possible you and Peter get together and determine that

 

[rockitman]

I am not disagreeing about the Herzan but if one is better than the other, they should sound different and that is why I suggested if possible you and Peter get together and determine that

The issue with that is Peter is not familiar with my sound system nor am I with his. I would be happy to try his passive system in my system, but would require significant effort. He would have a lot of stuff to move to my place, ect. The easiest solution for comparison is to get the Herzan as a demo in his own system that he is familiar with and can literally do an a/b comparison with his own table. If the benefit was not enough or even worse because the table is suspended, it would cost return shipping, maybe a few hundred tops.

 

[PeterA]

The issue with that is Peter is not familiar with my sound system nor am I with his. I would be happy to try his passive system in my system, but would require significant effort. He would have a lot of stuff to move to my place, ect. The easiest solution for comparison is to get the Herzan as a demo in his own system that he is familiar with and can literally do an a/b comparison with his own table. If the benefit was not enough or even worse because the table is suspended, it would cost return shipping, maybe a few hundred tops.

Christian, I completely agree with you that this seems to be the best way for me to compare the two units. I have not yet made this mental leap to spend more money and because my table is only a year old and the Vibraplane and ballast less than that. Together they also weight 400+ lbs. But it is the only way to cure my curiosity.

At some point down the road, I may just order the Herzan to compare the two units in my system. Until then, we will both be happy with what we have and enjoying our respective systems.

You have the TechDas to look forward to. Fun indeed.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thinking more about this and with regard to your situation, since the SME's are suspended, a passive solution is probably the best solution. The vibraplane won't fight with the turntable's own suspension...like an active solution may. This is good news...saves you a lot of money.

actually two passive systems are less likely to work synergistically together than an active and a passive system......unless the 2 passive systems are designed to work together. the active system will always adapt since it reads the environment, it simply operates more ideally when used by itself. the passive systems will each simply operate as a spring of some sort with all those characteristics.....they cannot adapt by themselves to a changing environment. i'm not saying that the 2 passive systems will not work great as an end result, only that the result is less predictable. and logically adding 2 passive springs together will slow down the reaction to resonance and exaggerate the response and rebound (it's then softer). there may be more net total reaction and isolation at the expense of precision.

for instance the performance of my Wave Kinetics A10 U8 footers is better on my solid Adona rack by themselves than the total performance of my decoupling Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack with the A10 U8's together. in that case the 2 passive systems conflicted each other, at least to my ears. adding the A10 U8's did improve things compared to just the GPA rack, but there was more improvement from the solid rack and the A10 U8's. that was the result in that particular case. the optimization of one passive system exceeded the joining of two. why this was the result could have been a number of reasons, my sense was the mass of the Adona granite shelves and heavy legs along with the solid rack made the positive difference.

joining passive systems is unpredictable. maybe if one passive system is tunable (Minus-K) that might reduce the unpredictability in some way. or maybe experimentation. for instance adding the ballast to the Vibraplane did improve the result for Peter. maybe that tuned the 2 passive systems and made the two work together better?

no doubt adding the Vibraplane to Peter's SME brought significant positive results. so in that case, the net is a gain to Peter's ears. who knows whether in that case defeating the passive isolation of the SME might actually add a net performance. you would have to try it to know that result.

in the end it is the precision of the active system that is where the magic is.....and the part that passive can not quite do....since it has no way to stop quickly.....it can only start and then drift to a stop as the spring rebounds.....relatively speaking.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I've just sent an email to one of these active isolation companies to shed light on what I consider to be a conundrum at the heart of active systems. We all understand how passive isolating stands work, minimising ground borne vibes getting to the tt eg my Symposium Isis produces discontinuity between tiers. Active than sets out to work on vibes reaching the tt thru the air from the spkrs, and from within the tt in form of chaos creating motor vibes/platter spinning vibes/moving arm noise...AND if these shelves really work down to the micron level, surely the vibes of the stylus within the lp groove themselves.
I can't see how stylus modulation vibes CANNOT be affected by comprehensive vibe control, since surely the design is maximised to damp ALL vibes - it can't 'know' what are good or bad vibes.
Similarly I can't fathom how vibes that reach the structure of the tt/arm first from the speakers can be dealt with since the shelf is a further step physically down the chain (vibes to tt/arm to tt feet to active shelf).
But passive isolation severing link btwn the tt/arm from the floor, this is easy to argue.
I don't doubt these things really work, but it may be overkill to give such an all-encompassing power to these items. And at their elevated price, a couple of steps beyond passive racks, just need to discuss their attributes.

 

[Steve williams]

Christian, I completely agree with you that this seems to be the best way for me to compare the two units. I have not yet made this mental leap to spend more money and because my table is only a year old and the Vibraplane and ballast less than that. Together they also weight 400+ lbs. But it is the only way to cure my curiosity.

At some point down the road, I may just order the Herzan to compare the two units in my system. Until then, we will both be happy with what we have and enjoying our respective systems.

You have the TechDas to look forward to. Fun indeed.

Peter

why don't you do what Christian suggested and have them send you a loaner. He said IIRC it was only $90 to pay shipping both ways

 

[Steve williams]

I've just sent an email to one of these active isolation companies to shed light on what I consider to be a conundrum at the heart of active systems. We all understand how passive isolating stands work, minimising ground borne vibes getting to the tt eg my Symposium Isis produces discontinuity between tiers. Active than sets out to work on vibes reaching the tt thru the air from the spkrs, and from within the tt in form of chaos creating motor vibes/platter spinning vibes/moving arm noise...AND if these shelves really work down to the micron level, surely the vibes of the stylus within the lp groove themselves.
I can't see how stylus modulation vibes CANNOT be affected by comprehensive vibe control, since surely the design is maximised to damp ALL vibes - it can't 'know' what are good or bad vibes.
Similarly I can't fathom how vibes that reach the structure of the tt/arm first from the speakers can be dealt with since the shelf is a further step physically down the chain (vibes to tt/arm to tt feet to active shelf).
But passive isolation severing link btwn the tt/arm from the floor, this is easy to argue.
I don't doubt these things really work, but it may be overkill to give such an all-encompassing power to these items. And at their elevated price, a couple of steps beyond passive racks, just need to discuss their attributes.

Bear in mind Mike and Christian that these instruments were designed for electron microscopy where motion of only a micron or less affects what you see. These were not designed for use under a TT even though they have proved to be excellent. Having said that and notwithstanding the fact that the Herzan works in 6 planes vs the Vibraplane BUT for my understanding of the science and how and what it is now being used for, I feel this comment by Spiritofmusic might just ring true....

I don't doubt these things really work, but it may be overkill to give such an all-encompassing power to these items.

Peter

think about doing what Christian did and spend the money for shipping the loaner and do your own test. You will then be able to compare both systems under your SME

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm certainly going to avail myself of a loan. I'll try it on top tier my 3 level Symposium where the tt currently resides to see how active and passive mix. This isn't really recommended so I'll then try an active shelf on a single lightweight spiked tier at floor level, hopefully combined weight of active shelf and tt of 70kg will mass load to the floor sufficiently. My main issue is that it's taken literally hours and hours to maximise my current setup on the Symposium, and if this unravels a little even on re-siting, it may defeat the whole object of the demo (will have to move tt/arm, motor, airhose, cart wiring, Straingauge energiser box). Will I end up with a subpar setup to compare a SOTA component?

 

[PeterA]

Peter

why don't you do what Christian suggested and have them send you a loaner. He said IIRC it was only $90 to pay shipping both ways

Steve, I would consider such a move to be disingenuous until I was actually ready and willing to pay for the Herzan if I liked it more than my Vibraplane. At this point, I'm just not ready to invest that additional money in my front end.

For similar reasons, I now rarely visit dealers to audition equipment. I would feel dishonest spending time with a dealer only to later find the item used at half price on Audiogon and then buy it used.

If I am ever in a position to spend $12K on a better isolation device for my turntable, I will certainly go down the path of auditioning and testing competing solutions.

 

[Steve williams]

then I guess we will never know

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Steve, I would consider such a move to be disingenuous until I was actually ready and willing to pay for the Herzan if I liked it more than my Vibraplane. At this point, I'm just not ready to invest that additional money in my front end.

For similar reasons, I now rarely visit dealers to audition equipment. I would feel dishonest spending time with a dealer only to later find the item used at half price on Audiogon and then buy it used.

If I am ever in a position to spend $12K on a better isolation device for my turntable, I will certainly go down the path of auditioning and testing competing solutions.

i completely relate to that.

as i've written; for 8 years i've known about active isolation, but i always had a better place to put my money.

finally i've touched all the other bases (from my perspective) and active isolation came to the top of my list.....and then looked around and saw i had an extra Ampex RTR deck i could sell. that was last fall....it took me 8 months to then sell the Ampex.

i could have had them send me a TS-140 to try....but i waited until i could buy it.

 

[PeterA]

actually two passive systems are less likely to work synergistically together than an active and a passive system......unless the 2 passive systems are designed to work together. the active system will always adapt since it reads the environment, it simply operates more ideally when used by itself. the passive systems will each simply operate as a spring of some sort with all those characteristics.....they cannot adapt by themselves to a changing environment. i'm not saying that the 2 passive systems will not work great as an end result, only that the result is less predictable. and logically adding 2 passive springs together will slow down the reaction to resonance and exaggerate the response and rebound (it's then softer). there may be more net total reaction and isolation at the expense of precision.

for instance the performance of my Wave Kinetics A10 U8 footers is better on my solid Adona rack by themselves than the total performance of my decoupling Grand Prix Audio Monaco rack with the A10 U8's together. in that case the 2 passive systems conflicted each other, at least to my ears. adding the A10 U8's did improve things compared to just the GPA rack, but there was more improvement from the solid rack and the A10 U8's. that was the result in that particular case. the optimization of one passive system exceeded the joining of two. why this was the result could have been a number of reasons, my sense was the mass of the Adona granite shelves and heavy legs along with the solid rack made the positive difference.

joining passive systems is unpredictable. maybe if one passive system is tunable (Minus-K) that might reduce the unpredictability in some way. or maybe experimentation. for instance adding the ballast to the Vibraplane did improve the result for Peter. maybe that tuned the 2 passive systems and made the two work together better?

no doubt adding the Vibraplane to Peter's SME brought significant positive results. so in that case, the net is a gain to Peter's ears. who knows whether in that case defeating the passive isolation of the SME might actually add a net performance. you would have to try it to know that result.

in the end it is the precision of the active system that is where the magic is.....and the part that passive can not quite do....since it has no way to stop quickly.....it can only start and then drift to a stop as the spring rebounds.....relatively speaking.

Mike and Christian,

I feel I must apologize to you for steering the course of discussion away from your Herzan. This thread has become an "active versus passive" isolation debate. That was not my intention when I decided to contribute a few posts. These are different technologies at far different price points. I am not technically inclined and don't want to make any claims about how these things work. I just wanted to clear up some statements about the passives that were inaccurate regarding degrees (directions) of isolation and so forth.

In the case of my particular passively isolated SME turntable: The platter/plinth are suspended to isolate them from the vibrations created from the motor. Defeating this function so that a non-isolated SME can rest on a passive isolation device seems counterproductive. I have noticed positive results with my custom, and system dependent, solution as I have previously described and do not want to imply that my particular solution is better than an alternative active one. Someday when I am willing to make the purchase, I may compare the two in my specific system and change solutions.

Until then, I hope that this thread returns to the subject of your Herzan and the benefits of active isolation. There is no doubt that you are both very happy with your devices and the resulting sonic improvements to your respective systems.

I'm sorry for the diversion.

 

[rockitman]

I'm sorry for the diversion.

No apology needed Peter. I learned a lot more about passive isolation as a result of this thread.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i could not help myself, resistance is futile.

i've ordered another Herzan for either my darTZeel preamp, or my Playback Designs MPS-5.....i'll try it in each spot. likely under the dart pre is where it will reside long term to optimize vinyl playback as that is where my focus is.

i'll have the TS-150 late this week or early next week.

 

[spiritofmusic]

From my recent email contact with one of the active isolation co's, airborne sound from loudspeakers will not play that much havok with a tt, hence the shelf will not have much of a role here, esp. since sound is directionally thrown forward from the drivers so not 'aimed' at the tt etc being isolated. However, sympathetic resonances in the listening environment such as build up of standing waves and bass nodes causing resonances in the floor and walls will be detected and eliminated by active isolation.
Conversely, vibrations deliberately created by the tt eg movement of the stylus side-to-side in the groove wall will be left alone by the shelf.
What I'm concluding is that sub-5Hz resonances, created by standing wave resonances and bass nodes in the room, footfall, neighbour noise/vibrations, traffic/environmental noise, building sway etc, in effect the lowest levels of this being below the threshold of hearing, are what are going to be most dealt with by active isolation. It seems that these 6 axes of isolation incls. pitch and yaw, circular movements etc, are well beyond the total scope of what passive isolation can contribute. AND passive isolation has to be loaded to at least two thirds of the maximum loading tolerance specified for a shelf, whereas no such requirements for active.
Now I'm starting to get the total concept.