Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

[cjfrbw]

It isn't the peaks I worry about, it's the piles.

 

[NorthStar]

...The piles of dead people along the mountain's passages?

 

[cjfrbw]

...The piles of dead people along the mountain's passages?

No, the kind you step in that you can't get off your shoes.

 

[NorthStar]

Most of us become very enthusiastic when we discover some great improvement to our systems and then would find it difficult to go back to the old sound. I think that with some successful upgrades, we learn more about sound, our systems, and our music collections. Hopefully this leads to more enjoyment. As the systems become better, these upgrades are often much more expensive and difficult to achieve. I agree that proper isolation is usually a cost effective and often shocking improvement relative to what else we can do to improve our systems. There seems no limit to this journey and that is what makes the hobby so fascinating to so many of us.

These forums and this particular thread are ideally places to share information, defend our experiences and learn from others.

>>> Speaking of the audiophile mountain: I read about and saw a photo of some guy recently jumped off near the top of Everest. He had oxygen and looked pretty brave. I hope he floated down to safety. {He did.} He and we seem to share the following: finding new limits, sharing the experience and learning from the process.

Right on!

Good sound equals to good room's acoustics.

...And before good EQualization (DIRAC, Room Perfect, Tact, Audyssey MultEQ Pro XT32), room treatments and audio component's isolation and vibration's elimination are the smart and logical scientific equation; just like a precision microscope, or telescope.

 

[NorthStar]

No, the kind you step in that you can't get off your shoes.

Oh, that! I see. ...I mean, I smell.

 

[NorthStar]

my Herzan TS-140 active isolation shelf arrived yesterday, and I installed it last evening.

I had been looking forward to this since 2005 when a reviewer from Positive Feedback brought over a Halcyonics for me to try. 3 years ago I switched from Grand Prix Audio Monaco decoupling shelves to the Adona 'grounded' racks to be able to optimize isolation devices such as the Herzan. when you combine isolation systems both systems are compromised. back in 2005 we had placed the Halcyonics on top of my GPA Monaco decoupling rack, yet it still sounded wonderful. how might it do when given the chance to work as designed?

no doubt I had big expectations. however; I also thought there was a chance that there might be take-aways that might compromise the benefits. with isolation devices my experience had been there are no absolutes. I did not know anyone who had tried one of these on a SOTA turntable. might it soften the sound?

it turns out it far exceeded my expectations. and I think besides the grounded, mass loaded Adona rack it sits on......and the 6" of concrete the Adona is spiked to, the NVS tt is an ideal match for the Herzan since it's designed to work with it's own isolation shelf. and Wave Kinetics started out as an isolation device builder.

i'll start out with the areas of my concerns, which I need not have had. the snap, impact, and weight of transients and bass is on a level I've never heard before. a huge improvement. and those things were already amazing. now they are 'real'. detail and focus is improved for everything, there is more density, texture, and harmonic sparkle......a vivid 'live-ness' that is hard to describe. the separation of every individual aspect of the presentation is another large improvement.

but really, the important thing is that music is more involving and compelling, there is a greater sense of the playing together, and the emotional content is much greater. I cannot stop listening.

I am astonished at what i'm hearing.

View attachment 10161 View attachment 10162

Hi Bob,

I will be happy to provide some information on our system to help provide a more clear understanding of the TS Series internals.

The TS Series includes piezoelectric sensors and actuators (force motors) to dynamically attenuate all six forms of vibrations (what we call six degrees of freedom). Outside of isolating all forms of vibrations (which passive systems do not do), the TS Systems attenuate vibrations over a more broad frequency spectrum, isolating vibrations in the lower frequency range (TS Series starts isolating vibrations at 0.7 Hz, whereas most passive systems begin isolating at 4-5 Hz). It is the low frequency isolation in which is most important for high resolution microscopes and highly sensitive precision equipment.

It can be said that AFMs have a similar sensitivity to vibrations as turntables, with the cantilever of an AFM experiencing the same sensitivities as a needle of a turntable. We have plenty of resources on our website that you may find useful, which can be found here (in case you are interested).


Similar Devices
There are smaller platform TS Series devices that cost less than the TS-140 as well as an alternative form factor of active vibration isolation platforms available. This different form factor is called the AVI Series, which has a different set of characteristics and features, but incorporates the same piezo technology as the TS Series. The AVI Series is less automated, higher profile and modular, enabling a more customizable solution to vibrations. The AVI Series is also less expensive than their TS Series counterparts.


Additionally, there are different technologies that incorporate air as the method of vibration isolation, which are very cost effective solutions. These are often used for optical microscopes that do not have an inherent sensitivity to low frequency vibrations. These type of tables typically range from 1.8k - 2.6k depending on the size and configuration.


My apologies for the information overload, but I hope this information is helpful. Please let me know if you have any additional questions or are interested in additional information.

Hi Northstar,

I have included an internal view of what the TS Series looks like. As you will see in the provided picture, the circuitry working in concert with the piezo sensors and actuators. In addition to the internal framework of the TS Series, there is a very precise and calibrated method in which the sensors, actuators and circuitry work together. I hope this is helpful in what information you are looking to receive.

View attachment 10207

I will add, this is only part of the table, (top plate is resting on the surface). Here is another view of the internals as well.

View attachment 10208

Hi Mep,

These systems incorporate numerous low frequency sensors, actuators and circuitry components that are individually made and assembled to achieve the highest level of precision possible. These tables are unable to be mass produced due to their highly technical nature, requiring careful assembly and precision during their build. Each table is also thoroughly tested and evaluated to ensure they meet a specific standard of performance and reliability.

Also, the original intention for these systems were geared towards high resolution microscopes (i.e. AFMs, SPMs, etc.), which required a high level of consistency, reliability, and performance.

We are confident in their ability to address the needs of our customers and demonstrate value to them once utilized with their application.

Thank you for your feedback and posted question.

Hi Peter,

Thank you for sharing your elegant set up and informing me of the current concerns you have for your turntable. I will do my best to address your question framing my answer around my experience with vibration isolation technology.


Majority of vibration isolation systems are incapable of addressing vibrations imparted by the supported application. The TS Series we offer has an opportunity to address vibrations induced by the turntable itself, but the level of isolation is not as significant as the vibrations being isolated from the environment. The TS Series is capable of achieving this form of vibration isolation as the sensory point of the table is focused on the top plate instead of the floor, whereby neutralizing the top plate vibrations rather than the floor vibrations. Another feature that some active vibration isolation tables incorporate is a dynamic feedback loop, which effectively provides a continuous input/output isolation mechanism addressing all vibrations in the environment. There is a lot of additional technical information that I could share, but I don't mean to bore you.


Other methods of improving vibrations from affecting an application can be where you place the set up, cable management, what floor the setup is placed on and many more. If you want to learn more about these methods, our Tutorials page has an overview of some of these recommended practices (found here).

I hope this information is helpful with your set up.

Some things in life make good intelligent sense, others don't.
Some people I trust, others I don't.

Things just above make good sense to me.
And people like Mike, Reid, and Peter; I trust. ...Christian's findings as well. ...And Frantz too.

 

[spiritofmusic]

With all this mention of piles, am I in the 'medical' section of these forum boards ? I'm currently using the only rack that's made any difference in my system, the Symposium Isis. It isolates each tier from ground borne vibrations via ball bearings/opposing magnets at each tier, which I'd certainly expect the Herzan/Accurion to do as well or better. Please help me out, but are we saying active isolation helps with airborne vibration ie sound waves direct from the speakers bombarding the tt, and vibrations inherently created by the motor/spinning platter/cartridge groove tracking? It seems that the main uses for these platforms are inert structures like electron microscopes which produce less inherent vibrations than tts and cd players with spinning, torquey movements. Surely trying to damp these down is going to be counterproductive since tts esp are designed to produce vibrations? And could an endless loop of inherent equipment produced vibration-damp-new vibration etc etc introduce a kind of jitter into the system with vibration hunting and inhibition imposing itself? Maybe we should just settle on passive isolation segregating the tt/cd from floorborne vibrations, and if so I'm confident my Symposium does this admirably.
This is all v. relevant in my case since I've heard a pair of SET monoblocks to die for and I can't afford everything !

 

[rockitman]

With all this mention of piles, am I in the 'medical' section of these forum boards ? I'm currently using the only rack that's made any difference in my system, the Symposium Isis. It isolates each tier from ground borne vibrations via ball bearings/opposing magnets at each tier, which I'd certainly expect the Herzan/Accurion to do as well or better. Please help me out, but are we saying active isolation helps with airborne vibration ie sound waves direct from the speakers bombarding the tt, and vibrations inherently created by the motor/spinning platter/cartridge groove tracking? It seems that the main uses for these platforms are inert structures like electron microscopes which produce less inherent vibrations than tts and cd players with spinning, torquey movements. Surely trying to damp these down is going to be counterproductive since tts esp are designed to produce vibrations? And could an endless loop of inherent equipment produced vibration-damp-new vibration etc etc introduce a kind of jitter into the system with vibration hunting and inhibition imposing itself? Maybe we should just settle on passive isolation segregating the tt/cd from floorborne vibrations, and if so I'm confident my Symposium does this admirably.
This is all v. relevant in my case since I've heard a pair of SET monoblocks to die for and I can't afford everything !

The TS 140 addresses not only ground bourne vibration but internal noise from the instrument, which is a turntable in this application along with acoustic noise from the environment. I consider music to fit the definition of acoustic noise. passive designs only address ground bourne vibrations which I have mentioned a few times in this thread and is also shown in the passive vs active comparison table on the Herzan site I have linked too.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Christian, so all three sources of vibrations are covered: floor-borne, air-borne, and component-borne? That's quite a feat, and would seem to be the answer for tts and cd players esp. My main problem is siting my tt away from my current rack, don't have a spare to use. So how about the tt on a floor level spiked light support which the Herzan/Accurion could somewhat mass load with it's own weight (70kg in my case of shelf+tt), or slab of something heavy like marble/granite?

 

[rockitman]

Christian, so all three sources of vibrations are covered: floor-borne, air-borne, and component-borne? That's quite a feat, and would seem to be the answer for tts and cd players esp. My main problem is siting my tt away from my current rack, don't have a spare to use. So how about the tt on a floor level spiked light support which the Herzan/Accurion could somewhat mass load with it's own weight (70kg in my case of shelf+tt), or slab of something heavy like marble/granite?

Yes, that is how I understand it. It will work fine on the floor sitting on a granite slab, especially if the floor is a basement foundation or slab concrete.I have no experience how these perform on a suspended wood floor, however. A discussion with Reid at Herzan would be good to discuss your specific situation.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Christian, how do you think spkrs would fare sited on active isolation? I've already teased Mike with the suggestion he order four TS-300s to put under his MM7s, but even this was too rich for his tastes. Spkrs produce the most vibration of all and would seem the ideal candidates for isolation.
I'm going to see if I can find a spiked granite slab or one engineered enough to couple to my floor which is semi-suspended timber on concrete slab. Then I've got a chance at a reasonable a-b of active v my passive Isis.

 

[rockitman]

Christian, how do you think spkrs would fare sited on active isolation? I've already teased Mike with the suggestion he order four TS-300s to put under his MM7s, but even this was too rich for his tastes. Spkrs produce the most vibration of all and would seem the ideal candidates for isolation.
I'm going to see if I can find a spiked granite slab or one engineered enough to couple to my floor which is semi-suspended timber on concrete slab. Then I've got a chance at a reasonable a-b of active v my passive Isis.

I don't see myself trying that. For one thing each speaker is 600lbs. It would also make them stand too tall for my current room configuration. If anything I will try Stillpoints Ultra 5's under my Wilson x-2.2's down the road. Putting stillpoint 5's under the amps yielded a significant improvement in clarity throughout the frequency range so perhaps I will try TS 140's some day. I am sure active isolation would be even better.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Christian, I'm struggling to see how any device can actively neutralise airborne vibrations reaching a tt from the speakers. Surely some at the very least won't get propogated thru the structure of the deck to even reach the shelf, but will affect the peripheral structures only. I mean, my tt uses an air bearing arm, on a sled, with an airhose and trailing direct-to-phono silver cartridge wiring. I just can't see how even the majority of this is going to be dealt with by a Herzan/Accurion. If this was really possible, tapping the tt chassis/arm really forcefully (not that I'm recommending you bash your arm carelessly , but you know what I mean!) would not transmit to the stylus. Please try it, and tell me if it's reproduced at all. Similarly, the tt/platter/motor/cart all produce ongoing noise/vibration. Again not all of this will propogate to the shelf. If I'm wrong, and isolation is 99.999%, I will be duly impressed beyond belief.
I'm not doubting this is a fine solution to these issues, and you and Mike really have registered massive improvements, but it may be overselling it's capabilities to say it totally isolates the tt from everything.
I'll liase with the guys at TableStable and Accurion to see if they can clear this up.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Christian, I'm struggling to see how any device can actively neutralise airborne vibrations reaching a tt from the speakers. Surely some at the very least won't get propogated thru the structure of the deck to even reach the shelf, but will affect the peripheral structures only. I mean, my tt uses an air bearing arm, on a sled, with an airhose and trailing direct-to-phono silver cartridge wiring. I just can't see how even the majority of this is going to be dealt with by a Herzan/Accurion. If this was really possible, tapping the tt chassis/arm really forcefully (not that I'm recommending you bash your arm carelessly , but you know what I mean!) would not transmit to the stylus. Please try it, and tell me if it's reproduced at all. Similarly, the tt/platter/motor/cart all produce ongoing noise/vibration. Again not all of this will propogate to the shelf. If I'm wrong, and isolation is 99.999%, I will be duly impressed beyond belief.
I'm not doubting this is a fine solution to these issues, and you and Mike really have registered massive improvements, but it may be overselling it's capabilities to say it totally isolates the tt from everything.
I'll liase with the guys at TableStable and Accurion to see if they can clear this up.

there is an LCD screen where one choice is three lines which move along with the noise....small little pulses. you can excite those lines by tapping on various places. if you clap your hands fairly close to the turntable you will see those lines wiggle. or shout loudly. they are reacting to pressure waves sensed by the piezio-sensors.

how much ambient resonance does it eliminate? i have not seen any measurement of that issue by itself.

 

[LL21]

Christian, I'm struggling to see how any device can actively neutralise airborne vibrations reaching a tt from the speakers. Surely some at the very least won't get propogated thru the structure of the deck to even reach the shelf, but will affect the peripheral structures only. I mean, my tt uses an air bearing arm, on a sled, with an airhose and trailing direct-to-phono silver cartridge wiring. I just can't see how even the majority of this is going to be dealt with by a Herzan/Accurion. If this was really possible, tapping the tt chassis/arm really forcefully (not that I'm recommending you bash your arm carelessly , but you know what I mean!) would not transmit to the stylus. Please try it, and tell me if it's reproduced at all. Similarly, the tt/platter/motor/cart all produce ongoing noise/vibration. Again not all of this will propogate to the shelf. If I'm wrong, and isolation is 99.999%, I will be duly impressed beyond belief.
I'm not doubting this is a fine solution to these issues, and you and Mike really have registered massive improvements, but it may be overselling it's capabilities to say it totally isolates the tt from everything.
I'll liase with the guys at TableStable and Accurion to see if they can clear this up.

I watched the Halcyonics react to hand claps next to the unit...no idea if it was 'counteracting' the air pulses from the clapping...but it clearly was detecting these claps. In the end, what do sound-cancelling headphones do? They react to soundwaves and send countermeasures to cxl the noise...I suppose a well-constructed active device could do the same. And for $12K...it better!

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't doubt it's reacting to those handclaps. It's undoubtedly providing isolation to a level greater than passive devices. My issue is that a tt is constantly creating vibrations, it's a by product of it's raison d'etre. I just remain skeptical that these can all be dealt with since they're impinging from within and without, and on an instant to instant level.
What scientific devices that these platforms are traditionally used for, produce so much potential mayhem on a continual basis?
Look, I don't want to pour cold water on this discussion. I know many here on this and other forums have spent mega$'s on anti-vibration measures such as super heavy/dense spkrs eg Wilson, Evolution Acoustics etc, have extremely massy overengineered tts eg SME, Wave Kinetics, Clearaudio, and have created acoustically perfect and uniform listening environments. And as such this is a logical way to go. I live in a very live room, but luckily reasonably impervious to footfall, neighbours and traffic, so am getting away with it by and large. My mind is open to being amazed, and so a home trial is the only way, so we'll see. But my instinct is that it's a nigh on impossible task to eliminate vibrations from so many different sources, all the time.
Just for your amusement, my previous hifi dealer was convinced the ultimate upgrade was...removing the listener from the listening space !!! Since he/she was a source of vibrational and psychological anomalies. Imagine if that really were true...

 

[NorthStar]

-- Spiritofmusic, your above post is totally self-explanatory. :b

Are you a believer and an audio explorer? ...You seem to be comfortably numb.

 

[cjfrbw]

If the table cancels the vibrations from the needle, doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the turntable?

 

[rockitman]

If the table cancels the vibrations from the needle, doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of the turntable?

No it doesn't do that. I am not sure what is so hard for you to understand ? it damps vibrations that are draining through the feet or spikes of the turntable. The TS 140 has a reaction time of a few milliseconds. I would imaging it's performance benefit wll be heavily dependent on the TT design, rigidity of the platform and floor construction. As in all things audio, YMMV. I Just happen to be lucky and get a lot of mileage from this thing in my system.

 

[LL21]

I don't doubt it's reacting to those handclaps. It's undoubtedly providing isolation to a level greater than passive devices. My issue is that a tt is constantly creating vibrations, it's a by product of it's raison d'etre. I just remain skeptical that these can all be dealt with since they're impinging from within and without, and on an instant to instant level.
What scientific devices that these platforms are traditionally used for, produce so much potential mayhem on a continual basis?
Look, I don't want to pour cold water on this discussion. I know many here on this and other forums have spent mega$'s on anti-vibration measures such as super heavy/dense spkrs eg Wilson, Evolution Acoustics etc, have extremely massy overengineered tts eg SME, Wave Kinetics, Clearaudio, and have created acoustically perfect and uniform listening environments. And as such this is a logical way to go. I live in a very live room, but luckily reasonably impervious to footfall, neighbours and traffic, so am getting away with it by and large. My mind is open to being amazed, and so a home trial is the only way, so we'll see. But my instinct is that it's a nigh on impossible task to eliminate vibrations from so many different sources, all the time.
Just for your amusement, my previous hifi dealer was convinced the ultimate upgrade was...removing the listener from the listening space !!! Since he/she was a source of vibrational and psychological anomalies. Imagine if that really were true...

I think the point about active isolation is not that its going to eliminate all vibration...its just that those who are proponents of it are saying it has eliminated vibration much better than passives. All I know is that in my own room, the passive 'isolation sandwiches' I have created for each of my components has helped tremendously...and far better than putting only isolation underneath. So as subtle as I thought even at low volume the improvement would be, it has been far greater than I anticipated.

In two cases, damping did NOT help (at first)....but because i had some extra pieces, when I added more (a lot more), the noise floor finally dropped again...this happened on 2 of my components.
It was a like a step function, not a steady improvement with each added damper. Adding 1 piece, 1 larger piece, then 2 pieces all did little...but there was a big improvement adding the 3rd damper, or adding a 20kg weight (only 10kg made a negligible difference). This surprised me, and I can only assume that certain vibration 'gets thru' until you get to that next level of isolation?

Given the little that I heard with the Halcyonics, I cannot say 'what is better' since I could not compare, but I can say the thing definitely works...and it seems it too might be getting at a low-level of vibration that is otherwise difficult to root out. Does it damp against the TT's own internal? maybe, maybe not...but it may well be eliminating other super-subtle vibrations which collectively make the difference to those who have bought them and found success with them over passive options.