That's kinda sorta what I stated in my above post. This platform was never designed for turntables or other objects that have moving mass during their use. They were designed to sit underneath objects that just had stationary mass and needed to be absolutely level like electron scanning microscopes for instance. Apparently it works just dandy for turntables according to Mike and Christian.
Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.
- Thread starter rockitman
- Start date
That's kinda sorta what I stated in my above post. This platform was never designed for turntables or other objects that have moving mass during their use. They were designed to sit underneath objects that just had stationary mass and needed to be absolutely level like electron scanning microscopes for instance. Apparently it works just dandy for turntables according to Mike and Christian.
Christian- I don't doubt it. But Frantz said something about bass bloat in his earlier post and it wasn't clear if he was talking about with or without the device. That's what I was asking about (and Peter as well, since I gather he has the Vibraplane, which Frantz also mentioned if memory serves).
since Frantz has not been able to join us and clarify his comments below, i thought i would disect them as best i could.
he starts out saying the differences (with the Vibraplane) were not subtle.
then clearly Frantz is associating using the Vibraplane under his VPI TNT turntable with 'that "bloated bass" phenomenon'. then mentioning 'requiring something sturdy under it'.
i don't see any other way to interpret what he wrote.
the rest below is directed to other thoughts.
he liked the Vibrapane, and thinks it could be the best solution.
he starts out saying the differences (with the Vibraplane) were not subtle.
then clearly Frantz is associating using the Vibraplane under his VPI TNT turntable with 'that "bloated bass" phenomenon'. then mentioning 'requiring something sturdy under it'.
i don't see any other way to interpret what he wrote.
the rest below is directed to other thoughts.
he liked the Vibrapane, and thinks it could be the best solution.
Well that is a comparison between 2 modes of function and the unit is active I would assume its performance to be better under the active mode. I would like to compare plane andherzan. We audiophiles tend to go for the new and in my experience the vibraplane is an extremely good and less expensive way to achieve isolation.
Once the vplane under the Tt bass became much more defined with cuts/lp which previously sounded too ripe in the bass the most curious part was the quantity of the bass as well as its quality became better ... Not just subjectively. In one particular experience using the Genesis 2, we had to reduce the bass level of the woofers columns. It is not in my opinion one of those differences that are so subtle that one needs to be convinced that the sound became more organic or that bthe soundstage became wider. ...no! clear cut major differences ... I am looking for vplane on eBay where they regularly popup with the warning (thanks microstrip) that sometimes replacement parts are expensive still not Hrzan-priced I would think.
The real question remains: Why aren't this type of active isolation incorporated in the most expensive Tts. I find it curious that 50 k nd over Tts aren't so equipped. I am willing to bet that some inexpensive tts with a serious isolation platform are likely to outperform several expensive models. Conjecture? Maybe but I don't think I am that far off... And I maintain that something like the herzan or the vibraplane is better of on the floor ... The more rigid the floor the better in that case. We could discuss the mechanics if needed ...
How can you know that? I'm not trying to be difficult, but that sounds like it's right out of the marketing department. I could believe the TS-140 performs better in active than in passive mode, but does it necessarily follow then that it is as good as all other passive solutions available?
I think it would be more interesting and more conclusive to do a shoot out between an actual air bladder system and the TS-140. Are you saying that the TS-140 in passive mode behaves like an air bladder system? Same recovery time, same self leveling, same resonance, same isolation range and limits?
What does this imply about the TechDas, which I believe has a passive, self-leveling air bladder isolation suspension? Will its performance improve on the TS-140 or will two different isolation solutions tend to make each less then optimally effective as was suggested earlier? Perhaps you can defeat the TechDas suspension and use only the TS-140 isolation.
Peter,
This link should answer your questions....I may or may not be right about the herzan's performance equalling the air bladder systems when it is In passive mode. I believe it is. The one thing to remember, passive systems only isolate one degree...the z axis. The active isolate in all 6 degrees.
http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/active-vs-passive.html
The TechDAS feet can be set up rigid, should I get the inkling to try active isolation. For now, I am buying the custom hrs TechDAS passive shelf to get a baseline. The TechDAS has a real challenge ahead of itself based on how my master innovation sounds with active isolation.
Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Well in fairness Christian you've compared your unit to itself. I'd like to hear the comparable Vibraplane compared to The Herzan.
I would love to hear from Gary; his impressions, and regarding the results of the Herzan TS-140 (or TS-150) under a turntable like
the TechDAS Air Force One for example.
* I remember very well that the TechDAS is impervious to Gary's knuckles bumping on top of the rotating/playing (red) album (from Peter's video).
I've never seen this before from a turntable!
Gary, are you reading this thread?
the TechDAS Air Force One for example.
* I remember very well that the TechDAS is impervious to Gary's knuckles bumping on top of the rotating/playing (red) album (from Peter's video).
I've never seen this before from a turntable!
Gary, are you reading this thread?
Who is ever going to be able to do that other than a vibraplane owner who also demo's a Herzan ? There are no vibraplane demo's as you need to buy the unit from one guy, then the air compressor from someone else then you need to buy a 150 lb ballast weight from yet a different party. You then need a rack shelf that supports 400-500 lbs. These factors alone made me not want to explore the vibraplane along with the fact it only isloates vertical motion. There is a lot of stuff in the environment that affects the horizontal axis too, namely the music playing in the room.
I find it ironic that my friend Frantz, who characteristicly seems to embrace science and factual over subjective, in this case requires the subjective to prove what science has already proven.
I agree with him that this comparison would have value to all and is a reasonable thing.....only that I need to enjoy the moment.
this 'too ripe' part of the bass with the vplane is 'feedback' that was too strong for the vplane to handle blurring and distorting bass articulation. the fact that turning down the woofers cleaned it up indicates (but does not prove) it was feedback. possibly even that the distortion excited the resonant frequency of the vplane. I've had many such moments in the last week with the Herzan where previous musical truths about certain recordings turned out to be revealed as 'feedback issues' now solved. pretty humbling and revelatory.
most tt designers don't know about active isolation. it's that simple. I've been posting about the Herzan and active isolation multiple times on multiple forums for 8 years and almost no one ever has any idea what i'm talking about or even pays attention. I usually don't even get a response.
I've posted here on WBF about the Herzan multiple times before. finally last year Reid from Herzan did visit briefly but got no traction either. I think everyone considered it voodoo.
finally Christian bit when I posted about it 'again' and he investigated a month ago and bravely bought one.
I can tell you lots of tt designers will take notice now. someone has finally used one with a high end tt.
as far as the 'floor' verses 'solid rack' question; I agree that 'in theory' a solid floor is better.....however....even in a lab they use a rack simply because the work they do requires operator comfort to accomplish. no difference for a tt. how much fun would it be to live with a tt on the floor? not too much. and my guess the difference in performance assuming a properly designed grounded, mass loaded rack, would be minimal.
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Vibraplanes are supposed to isolate in all directions, though possibly with different vertical and horizontal tuned frequencies. I have heard that some samples of vibraplane have horizontal frequencies around 2 Hz and vertical in the 2-3Hz range. These would give isolation of about 90 percent at 10 Hz. Vibraplanes are also massive, and mass will create vibration drainage and dissipation by itself.
Minus K has a vertical effective frequency of .5 HZ, and a horizontal effective frequency variable from 1.5 Hz to 2.5 Hz depending on load. That gives better than 99 percent isolation vertically between 5 and 10 Hz, and at least 90 percent isolation horizontally at 10 Hz.
The big question, what is necessary force? Is everybody rhapsodizing about the 90 percent isolation level, with the next 5 to 10 percent of isolation inaudible?
That would be my hunch, and there are passive solutions that can be had in the 90 percent isolation range for both vertical and horizontal directions, and stacking some cost effective solutions could improve those 90 percent figures.
I personally don't want either pumps, vulcanized air bladders or electricity and don't think any of them are necessary for optimized performance. There are passive ways to skin the cat, and nobody knows the long term reliability of the electrical products except by assertion. Rubber based bladders tend to fail after a few years.
Minus K has a vertical effective frequency of .5 HZ, and a horizontal effective frequency variable from 1.5 Hz to 2.5 Hz depending on load. That gives better than 99 percent isolation vertically between 5 and 10 Hz, and at least 90 percent isolation horizontally at 10 Hz.
The big question, what is necessary force? Is everybody rhapsodizing about the 90 percent isolation level, with the next 5 to 10 percent of isolation inaudible?
That would be my hunch, and there are passive solutions that can be had in the 90 percent isolation range for both vertical and horizontal directions, and stacking some cost effective solutions could improve those 90 percent figures.
I personally don't want either pumps, vulcanized air bladders or electricity and don't think any of them are necessary for optimized performance. There are passive ways to skin the cat, and nobody knows the long term reliability of the electrical products except by assertion. Rubber based bladders tend to fail after a few years.
Passive only isolates ground borne vibrations. That is it. Active handles ground borne, the instrument itself (ie TT) and acoustic noise...ie vibrations caused by the music in this application.
Take the time to read the entire passive vs active tutorial and you will understand the difference. I do believe vibraplane makes an active device, but that is not what we are talking about here.
http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/active-vs-passive.html
Take the time to read the entire passive vs active tutorial and you will understand the difference. I do believe vibraplane makes an active device, but that is not what we are talking about here.
http://www.herzan.com/resources/tutorials/active-vs-passive.html
I am not really sure what your are describing, but if a direct impingement occurs on the body of the turntable itself, the platform could only attenuate the portion of the vibration that might otherwise be reflected back from the interface, it doesn't reach into the turntable and quiet the turntable's oscillations or airborne vibrations any more than it can reach out into the environment and quiet the outside vibrations, it only "sees" them at the interface.
Passives do that as well, by creating the so called high impedance interface.
Anyway, drop the needle on a non spinning record with your system on loud enough to hear stuff. Tap the turntable platter, vinyl record or tonearm and listen to what you hear through the system. Then turn on the device and see if you can hear any difference with the device engaged. If you can hear anything at all, the platform is certainly not preventing vibrations coming from the turntable itself. It might remove any feedback loops from vibrations reflected at the interface, but it has to have a vibration to begin with to even activate, and if the vibration is there from the turntable, it has already happened.
The platform isolates the turntable from the world and the world from the turntable, but not the turntable from itself, except for the said reflected vibrations.
Passives do that as well, by creating the so called high impedance interface.
Anyway, drop the needle on a non spinning record with your system on loud enough to hear stuff. Tap the turntable platter, vinyl record or tonearm and listen to what you hear through the system. Then turn on the device and see if you can hear any difference with the device engaged. If you can hear anything at all, the platform is certainly not preventing vibrations coming from the turntable itself. It might remove any feedback loops from vibrations reflected at the interface, but it has to have a vibration to begin with to even activate, and if the vibration is there from the turntable, it has already happened.
The platform isolates the turntable from the world and the world from the turntable, but not the turntable from itself, except for the said reflected vibrations.
I find it ironic that my friend Frantz, who characteristicly seems to embrace science and factual over subjective, in this case requires the subjective to prove what science has already proven.
I agree with him that this comparison would have value to all and is a reasonable thing.....only that I need to enjoy the moment.
this 'too ripe' part of the bass with the vplane is 'feedback' that was too strong for the vplane to handle blurring and distorting bass articulation. the fact that turning down the woofers cleaned it up indicates (but does not prove) it was feedback. possibly even that the distortion excited the resonant frequency of the vplane. I've had many such moments in the last week with the Herzan where previous musical truths about certain recordings turned out to be revealed as 'feedback issues' now solved. pretty humbling and revelatory.
most tt designers don't know about active isolation. it's that simple. I've been posting about the Herzan and active isolation multiple times on multiple forums for 8 years and almost no one ever has any idea what i'm talking about or even pays attention. I usually don't even get a response.
I've posted here on WBF about the Herzan multiple times before. finally last year Reid from Herzan did visit briefly but got no traction either. I think everyone considered it voodoo.
finally Christian bit when I posted about it 'again' and he investigated a month ago and bravely bought one.
I can tell you lots of tt designers will take notice now. someone has finally used one with a high end tt.
as far as the 'floor' verses 'solid rack' question; I agree that 'in theory' a solid floor is better.....however....even in a lab they use a rack simply because the work they do requires operator comfort to accomplish. no difference for a tt. how much fun would it be to live with a tt on the floor? not too much. and my guess the difference in performance assuming a properly designed grounded, mass loaded rack, would be minimal.
Hi
A recent infatuation with my iPad has made my posts quite unclear recently so back to the trusted Lenovo Thinkpad: No typing on a screen and having Apple deciding what I wanted to write
(Hi Keith W) ...To, hopefully clarify:
I became interested in the Vibraplane many years ago. It simply made sense. Coupled with the fact that they were available from eBay and from laboratory supplies resellers at substantially reduced prices, I did go for it. I had two as recently as 4 years ago.
About the "Bloated Bass” statement. Up to 2005, I listened primarily to LPs... I had a very good CD gear but listened mostly to LP and did consider it to be the absolute in fidelity, as an aside, I no longer hold that view. I had some albums that I found extremely good but whose bass I found too ripe. "Bloated" would be an audiophile hyperbole but I am an audiophile so. Floor was concrete. Footfalls didn't bother most TTs I had in this room but strong bass content in the (treated) room seems to find their way within the TTs ... Once the Vibraplane was in, the bass that hitherto was too ripe became just right and with the correct weight. Big but defined. Strong but precise and with the correct timing... And this consistently. Before VPlane .. Bloated pass on some albums ... with Vplane . Clean bass good midrange and overall better reproduction. Got excited and recommended the Vplane to all my friends then. A friend of mine had Genesis 2 with some TT I don’t remember but I did think the arm was an air bearing one. We conducted the experience with Vplane. Before we use the VPlane the settings needed to have good bass in the system were rather high ... too much low bass but midbass was right ... Since most music he listened weren't rich in low bass, the setting was a valid compromise but any album that contained strong low bass say under 50 Hz would sound overly ripe in the low bass and also in the mid bass... Drop theVplane, can't remember which model. Had to reduce the bass substantially to get the same impact in the midbass now and the low bass became extremely defined no bloated bass with LP. It is as if the feedback (because that is what it was) reduced the impact, level and articulation of the bass. And it wasn't only in the bass most everything else became clearer. Midrange in particular was opened in a startling way... I have an opinion on this but this will come later in this very long reply/post.
I think I posted about my Vplane experience in AVS Forum. I put the second one under a Burmester DAC. No difference that I would care for ... If I strained I would hear some things. Mostly in the usual audiophile clichés department. “Blacker background”, “wider soundstage”. .Nothing on which I would bet the farm or caring for ... Put it under the Burmester Transport. Same nothing. Or small things... so small I couldn't reliably put my fingers on ... I didn't bother to put it under the amps or Pre ... I knew where it worked. Under TT , things that rely on an acoustic transducer to work. Isolate the transducer in that case the TT from the ambient noise, IOW reduce the feedback and it sounds better. I tend to think they could work under Tube not so much with most competently built Solid State.
Now some specifics. I believe in science. Regardless of what our audiophile philosophies are; the process of music reproduction is firmly grounded in Science. Science does not instantly provide all answers but it eventually does. It has become almost fashionable in the higher audiophile circles to reject Science. Meanwhile products like the Herzan and other truly efficient isolation devices are firmly rooted/grounded (you'll excuse the puns) in Science. They work based on sound (another pun) Science.. No Quantum effect, no non repeatable under scrutiny impression. Well understood phenomenon. Repeatable and consistent results. Belief in Science is not a rejection of subjective impressions far from it. It is trying to place them ina context of reliability and repeatability. If one relies on an imperfect and easily fooled measuring device.. What should one expect the results to be?
P.S.
I saw cjfrbw answered some earlier misconception about the vplane. I don’t have much to add.. I need to have a look at the Herzan.. For now I find the price rather high especially when I can get the Vibraplane for much less on eBay notwithstanding the caveats that they may need repair but at $1000 for a model such as THIS ONE and even considering the freight to be about an additional $1000 too … I would hedge my bets toward a Vplane . I will also look at the specs and see what difference if any there are … it could be the Herzan is in all ways superior but as cjfrbw mentioned the 90% may well be covered by the VPlane.
Hope I made sense this time.
Steve Williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Frantz
well said. It is for the same reason that I asked yesterday that it would be interesting to have a shootout of the 2 types. Christian suggested it would be too difficult but I think it could be done as there are several members who own Vibraplanes and live close enough to Christian that if they wanted to they could bring their Vibraplanes to his house and do the comparison there. I know Peter was interested
I truly wonder if the audible differences could be detected by listeners when all was said and done but honestly it would be good to find out
I'm not knocking either technology but with the huge difference in price the shootout would prove interesting
well said. It is for the same reason that I asked yesterday that it would be interesting to have a shootout of the 2 types. Christian suggested it would be too difficult but I think it could be done as there are several members who own Vibraplanes and live close enough to Christian that if they wanted to they could bring their Vibraplanes to his house and do the comparison there. I know Peter was interested
I truly wonder if the audible differences could be detected by listeners when all was said and done but honestly it would be good to find out
I'm not knocking either technology but with the huge difference in price the shootout would prove interesting
I find it ironic that my friend Frantz, who characteristicly seems to embrace science and factual over subjective, in this case requires the subjective to prove what science has already proven.
I agree with him that this comparison would have value to all and is a reasonable thing.....only that I need to enjoy the moment.
this 'too ripe' part of the bass with the vplane is 'feedback' that was too strong for the vplane to handle blurring and distorting bass articulation. the fact that turning down the woofers cleaned it up indicates (but does not prove) it was feedback. possibly even that the distortion excited the resonant frequency of the vplane. I've had many such moments in the last week with the Herzan where previous musical truths about certain recordings turned out to be revealed as 'feedback issues' now solved. pretty humbling and revelatory.
Mike, I think you are misunderstanding what Frantz wrote about "too ripe" bass and "feedback" with the Vibraplane. He clarifies it in a subsequent post (#194) in which he writes that with the Vibraplane in place, the bass became much better. I understand him to have had a similar experience that you had with the Herzan, that is, that proper isolation (active or passive) revealed that "previous musical truths about certain recordings turned out to be revealed as "feedback issues" now solved". You discovered this with your Herzan and he discovered this with his Vibraplane. Perhaps to different degrees, who can say, but similar results nonetheless.
One thing I have discovered is the audiophile mountain has no peak. Just when you think you have reached the summit, you realize clouds obscured your view and you are nowhere near the top. People on this forum who have described their very expensive systems in terms that damn near reflected perfection buy a new piece of gear and then describe the sound of their system pre-the new upgrade as sounding like something you would expect if you bought it at Sears.
Most of us become very enthusiastic when we discover some great improvement to our systems and then would find it difficult to go back to the old sound. I think that with some successful upgrades, we learn more about sound, our systems, and our music collections. Hopefully this leads to more enjoyment. As the systems become better, these upgrades are often much more expensive and difficult to achieve. I agree that proper isolation is usually a cost effective and often shocking improvement relative to what else we can do to improve our systems. There seems no limit to this journey and that is what makes the hobby so fascinating to so many of us.
These forums and this particular thread are ideally places to share information, defend our experiences and learn from others.
Speaking of the audiophile mountain: I read about and saw a photo of some guy recently jumped off near the top of Everest. He had oxygen and looked pretty brave. I hope he floated down to safety. He and we seem to share the following: finding new limits, sharing the experience and learning from the process.
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