How much is too much?

[microstrip]

I'm never surprised any more by what people find collectible.. Haven't got the instinct myself. I've started a few collections over the years, but I was never able to sustain interest in the concept of collecting.

Tim

Tim,

For many years I collected Meccano sets, rare parts and literature. This british born metal toy was part of my childhood - I really enjoyed building the big cranes, but never accomplished the dream of every Meccano- man: building the Mecanno giant blocksetting crane.

The interest is idling now- but from time to time I look at the collection, go through the books and spend a few good moments with it. And if I find a nice deal in something unusual I do not resist ...

 

[DaveyF]

Micro, never collected Meccano sets, but I too grew up with it. Great Stuff

 

[mep]

Never hoid of it before. We had erector sets on this side of the pond.

 

[Steve williams]

We had Meccano when I grew up in Canada. They were great and like micro I never got to build that big one.

Fast forward to the next generation as I found myself having a blast with my kids building Lego. I built just about every Lego thing there was to build. I wish I owned stock in Lego.

BTW guys there is an appropriate forum here to discuss these things

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?124-Collectibles

Having said that it is not well represented if indeed all of you guys who collected stuff started some threads. I bet it would get some fun replies

I don't even want to tell you the things I collected as I grew up.

 

[DaveyF]

You can add LS3/5as, Garrard 301 Grease bearings, NOS and NIB vacuum tubes, Long Body Koetsu carts, original EMT "banana" arms, EMT tables, Walker era Quads, ............

I could actually turn this one around on you. An LS3/5a could still hold it's own against many a mini-monitor today. A Ferrari Barchetta would get smoked on a track by a Honda Civic Type R.

The Walker era Quads are also still highly competitive with many speakers designed today. In some areas many still consider them SOTA. IMO, if a design is right from the start, then probably it is still right forty or more years later. The same seems to apply to Ferrari's

 

[mep]

The original ELS-57s had a great midrange. They essentially have no bottom end and they can't take much power and they can't play too loud. Not my idea of paradise. The ESL-63 speakers could take more power, but they still had their limiits and they still were pretty dead below 45 Hz or so. Whenever I listened to them, I always felt like I was sitting up in the balcony looking down on top of the performers heads. And this was at Karen and Jack Sumner's house in Maine when I used to live in Maine. They actually used a pair of transmisson line speakers I built as subs under the ESL-63 speakers for a short period of time. And I mean literally underneath as they layed my speakers on their sides and stacked the ESL-63 speakers on top of them. My transmission line speakers were a two-way floor stander. They were using just the woofers to agument the bass. After hearing the ESL-63s with my woofer and without, I couldn't imagine listening to the ESL-63s without a some type of sub. I'm not a fan of speakers with no bass.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim,

For many years I collected Meccano sets, rare parts and literature. This british born metal toy was part of my childhood - I really enjoyed building the big cranes, but never accomplished the dream of every Meccano- man: building the Mecanno giant blocksetting crane.

The interest is idling now- but from time to time I look at the collection, go through the books and spend a few good moments with it. And if I find a nice deal in something unusual I do not resist ...

That is awesome. That could make a collector out of anyone.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

(...) The ESL-63 speakers could take more power, but they still had their limiits and they still were pretty dead below 45 Hz or so. Whenever I listened to them, I always felt like I was sitting up in the balcony looking down on top of the performers heads. And this was at Karen and Jack Sumner's house in Maine when I used to live in Maine. They actually used a pair of transmisson line speakers I built as subs under the ESL-63 speakers for a short period of time. And I mean literally underneath as they layed my speakers on their sides and stacked the ESL-63 speakers on top of them. My transmission line speakers were a two-way floor stander. They were using just the woofers to agument the bass. After hearing the ESL-63s with my woofer and without, I couldn't imagine listening to the ESL-63s without a some type of sub. I'm not a fan of speakers with no bass.

You were unlucky with your experiences with ESL63. I have used them for more years than any other speaker - by chance they are today playing Georges Brassens as I type, as I wanted to listen to the ARC REF 150 at middle time burn-in using this speaker.

Unless the room acoustics are very poor or the electronics are not adequate the image of the ELS63 is big and real sized - I never had the "balcony view" sensation. In poor condition they lack body and sound thin - some people use too tall stands on them , and even worst, many suppress the metal grilles looking for more transparency. They forget that the grilles are part of the frame and doing so they introduce an horrible resonance in the outer frame that spoils the good image and spoils the frequency response. In these conditions the image can be small and the sound is thin.

Anyone having listened to a pair of Futterman OTLs driving ESL63 playing opera with a top analog system in a good auditorium will find difficult to to forget the experience. Mine was with the Rigoletto - "Bella figlia dell'amore" never sounded the same.

ESL63 are chameleons - they can sound as you refer, but can also sound the opposite. Adding some bass, when done correctly improves a lot. My best experience was using a second pair placed orthogonally to the main pair, as the SME owners use in their listening room.

Surely they have limits - I would not recommend them for rock listeners. But as the great Peter Walker wisely said : "We can get about 100dB at two metres, which is adequate for me and 95% of our customers, but not all of them"

BTW, they really sound great with the ARC REF150.

 

[MylesBAstor]

You were unlucky with your experiences with ESL63. I have used them for more years than any other speaker - by chance they are today playing Georges Brassens as I type, as I wanted to listen to the ARC REF 150 at middle time burn-in using this speaker.

Unless the room acoustics are very poor or the electronics are not adequate the image of the ELS63 is big and real sized - I never had the "balcony view" sensation. In poor condition they lack body and sound thin - some people use too tall stands on them , and even worst, many suppress the metal grilles looking for more transparency. They forget that the grilles are part of the frame and doing so they introduce an horrible resonance in the outer frame that spoils the good image and spoils the frequency response. In these conditions the image can be small and the sound is thin.

Anyone having listened to a pair of Futterman OTLs driving ESL63 playing opera with a top analog system in a good auditorium will find difficult to to forget the experience. Mine was with the Rigoletto - "Bella figlia dell'amore" never sounded the same.

ESL63 are chameleons - they can sound as you refer, but can also sound the opposite. Adding some bass, when done correctly improves a lot. My best experience was using a second pair placed orthogonally to the main pair, as the SME owners use in their listening room.

Surely they have limits - I would not recommend them for rock listeners. But as the great Peter Walker wisely said : "We can get about 100dB at two metres, which is adequate for me and 95% of our customers, but not all of them"

BTW, they really sound great with the ARC REF150.

The 57s always gave me the feeling that I was listening through a thin horizontal slit.

I totally agree with your comments about the 63s driven by Futtermans. Pure magic. (another amp that sounded good was the original Quicksilver with the 8417s.) I also wonder what the 63s would sound like with any OTL, such as the Atma-sphere, Berning, Joule Electra amps--or you can have George build you one from scratch

http://www.kayeaudiolabs.com/OTL_home.html

Then there's many OTLs that have come and gone like the San Pareil, etc.

http://www.one-electron.com/Fourier.html

Oh and a friend rebuilt his 63s, stacking the panels horizontally. Interesting change

 

[mep]

The ESL-63 speakers I heard were powered with a Spectral preamp and power amp and it would have been lashed up with top of the line Transparent Audio cables. I never heard them with a tube amp.

 

[microstrip]

I totally agree with your comments about the 63s driven by Futtermans. Pure magic. (another amp that sounded good was the original Quicksilver with the 8417s.) I also wonder what the 63s would sound like with any OTL, such as the Atma-sphere, Berning, Joule Electra amps--or you can have George build you one from scratch

http://www.kayeaudiolabs.com/OTL_home.html

Then there's many OTLs that have come and gone like the San Pareil, etc.

http://www.one-electron.com/Fourier.html

Oh and a friend rebuilt his 63s, stacking the panels horizontally. Interesting change

The Sans Pareil was a great sounding amplifier during the rare moments is was not broken. Although they sound great, unhappily the reliability of Fourier amplifiers was a sad history. But very often the poor stories about OTL breaking are due to an improper choice of speakers - they should not be used with loudspeakers having low impedance or needing significant current peaks.

One of the big problems of the copy generation of the Futterman OTLs was the non existence of proper output tubes. The original 6LF6 or the functional equivalents EL509, PL509 beam power pentodes were able to supply anode peak currents of 1.4A, and the modern versions of the EL509 can not supply more than .5A.

The Atmasphere amplifiers are very reliable - I have used the first version of the old M50 and two versions of the MA2. They sound excellent on many speakers, but I never could not get the magic from the ESL63 with them. Good sound, but nothing else. Divine with Soundlab's.

BTW, the geometry of the ESL63 is part of the model - staking them otherwise than the original way destroys the point like radiation pattern. The only change I would accept is done in my dream system (room including).

 

[DaveyF]

One of the best sounds that I heard when I was a little younger was a pair of stacked original Quads. So pure was this sound that I remember thinking that it would be VERY hard for any system to significantly beat this system. I have listened to Quad 63's on many occasions and I have never heard them sound any less than very good. When they are set up with an appropriate tube amp--- I Like my ARC D70 Mk2 with them or as the other posters have said OTL's, they can be amazing. Only real drawback for me is that they are like all panel speakers, a little lacking in the ability to portray dynamics. If it wasn't for that, I would still own Quads or Maggies.

Mark, if you have not been at least mildly impressed with either the original Quads or the 63's, then IMHO you haven't heard what these speakers can do set up with the right gear.

 

[MylesBAstor]

One of the best sounds that I heard when I was a little younger was a pair of stacked original Quads. So pure was this sound that I remember thinking that it would be VERY hard for any system to significantly beat this system. I have listened to Quad 63's on many occasions and I have never heard them sound any less than very good. When they are set up with an appropriate tube amp--- I Like my ARC D70 Mk2 with them or as the other posters have said OTL's, they can be amazing. Only real drawback for me is that they are like all panel speakers, a little lacking in the ability to portray dynamics. If it wasn't for that, I would still own Quads or Maggies.

Mark, if you have not been at least mildly impressed with either the original Quads or the 63's, then IMHO you haven't heard what these speakers can do set up with the right gear.

Don't forget the Crosby modded Quad 63s either

 

[mep]

Davey-I never said I wasn’t mildly impressed, Quads just have too many limitations in FR, dynamics, SPL, etc., in order to light my fire and make me want to own a pair. The ELS-63s I heard were the Crosby mod version. If you live in a small house with a loud wife, they might just be your cup of tea.

 

[DaveyF]

Davey-I never said I wasn’t mildly impressed, Quads just have too many limitations in FR, dynamics, SPL, etc., in order to light my fire and make me want to own a pair. The ELS-63s I heard were the Crosby mod version. If you live in a small house with a loud wife, they might just be your cup of tea.

Mark, I actually agree with your statement. Which is a pity, because what the Quads do well, they do extremely well. OTOH, I would only seriously consider them in a 2nd system that was more dedicated to small ensemble and in a small room.

Back on topic....in the current TAS, I just love this statement by JV in his review of the AAS Gabriel TT..talking about the required $40K stand for the TT...." Of Course, if you have this kind of mad money-or you're me- who's counting?"

 

[KeithR]

Link to some 30k/pair CF monoblocks:

http://pic6.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/im...&i/s/f/1317013147.jpg&Concert-Fidelity-ZL-120

Wow, that's all I can say.

 

[mep]

Link to some 30k/pair CF monoblocks:

http://pic6.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/im...&i/s/f/1317013147.jpg&Concert-Fidelity-ZL-120

Wow, that's all I can say.

Are you serious? They look like $300 amps.

 

[Steve williams]

The Emperor's New Clothes

 

[DaveyF]

Are you serious? They look like $300 amps.

The scary thing is, how many people buying high-end amps pop the hood and look under it as in this photo

Makes one wander how many poor unsuspecting folks got caught with this debacle

Pixie Dust has always had a market, pity it seems to be so prevalent in high-end audio today

 

[Orb]

I guess the white van audio sellers had to go somewhere, and see the internet more like selling down expensive part of 5th Avenue and Oxford Street
Hence the eye watering price, which hopefully will not catch anyone out.

Cheers
Orb