Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[NorthStar]

For another thread,
why to most (not a all) women go for jewelry, and most (except watches) men a/v?

Because most men like doing things that don't require talking?

---- I like that. :b

 

[NorthStar]

Thanks Steve. I hope everyone knows we are not trying to beat up on anybody.

But we don't want high end audio companies to end up like the American car makers who were driven to edge of the cliff
by people who did not respond the market and were putting out products that did not serve the best interest of society or
the whole industry.

---- I just watched an excellent documentary few days ago on Ford Motor Company, of America (Detroit, Michigan).
...The full History on Henry Ford. ...Wow, some amazingly dirty tactics used by this guy!
...A dictator?!? ...And the guy who he hired in 1931; Harry Bennett! Ouch!
...An ex-boxer, a "tough guy" => http://www.reformation.org/henry-ford.html

* It must be somewhere on the web (that video reportage/documentary)... With tons of actual footage (b&w).

Anyhow, it was truly educative. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company

 

[NorthStar]

When you look at the pricing of high end, there does seem to be some interesting ceilings. For example, for TT's it's about $150K ( ok, forget the $650K one-off that was mentioned here a while back), for speakers it's about $200K and for cartridges it's about $15K. Cabling seems to be about $90K depending on length. Which brings me to my point...it would seem that the manufacturer's and the distributor's have somehow figured out where the maximum acceptable level for pricing is.
I would like to know how they got to these numbers...vs. pricing speakers up to say $15M or cabling to $8M...which to some may still be acceptable and to most would be simply just as ludicrous. Is this the $64K question..

---- Those, are 'humble' prices Davey. In America (I said 'America', and not the World),
the actual prices are even more that the ones you just mentioned above.

And in the World, these go much higher! True, you can find a few TTs for around $650,000+, and some pair of stereo loudspeakers (two of them) approaching the million dollar figure, if not even more!
Amps? ...Half-million! ...And more! ...For one Mono block only!
Phono cartridges? From $20,000 up to $50,000!
Tonearms? ...Well, Gary has introduced us to that $35,000 one!
Phono Preamps? $100,000+!
Record Cleaning Machines? ...Up to $20,000!
Digital Source? $85,000 (America only)!
Cables? Wires? Power cords? Audio Purifiers? Well, ...

BUT! What is money for some people? ...And do they care if they pay 95% more than the actual value!?!

SOOOOO, what is Best? ...I'd say real value. ...Honest Value, and quality 'sound result',
with beneficial human value: Music in the service of Worl's Peace, Happiness, Relaxation, Pleasure of the senses (EARS), and all that true jazz.

"One love" - Bob (Robert) Marley

 

[JackD201]

To paraphrase Myles, 'who cares?' If you aren't in the market for a 50k cable, it really doesn't matter does it, unless you assume that a high asking price at the top level encourages more ambitious pricing at the lower rungs.
As to these business owners driving Rollers, those cars are probably the some of the heaviest depreciating rolling stock on the market. (I'm assuming you are talking newish ones, not the vintage collectibles). Dan D'Agostino used to drive a newish Bentley as I remember, and nobody accused him of overpricing or gouging. Ditto, Mark Levinson- I seem to remember he had an Aston-Martin.

My thoughts exactly. If you aren't playing keep up with the Jones' or secretly wishing you could, it shouldn't matter.

 

[NorthStar]

-- It's our right to know. ...To all of us, even the guys in the market for a $50,000/pair of interconnets.

* If I was a Pro reviewer, I wouldn't! ...Because I'll get fired very quick!

BUT! I'm here, in the now, in an audio forum, and surrounded by you people, a good bunch. :b

Yeah, no money comin' from that, but I get truly "rich" though. ...And that is value that you cannot buy or sell.

 

[MylesBAstor]

---- Those, are 'humble' prices Davey. In America (I said 'America', and not the World),
the actual prices are even more that the ones you just mentioned above.

And in the World, these go much higher! True, you can find a few TTs for around $650,000+, and some pair of stereo loudspeakers (two of them) approaching the million dollar figure, if not even more!
Amps? ...Half-million! ...And more! ...For one Mono block only!
Phono cartridges? From $20,000 up to $50,000!
Tonearms? ...Well, Gary has introduced us to that $35,000 one!
Phono Preamps? $100,000+!
Record Cleaning Machines? ...Up to $20,000!
Digital Source? $85,000 (America only)!
Cables? Wires? Power cords? Audio Purifiers? Well, ...

BUT! What is money for some people? ...And do they care if they pay 95% more than the actual value!?!

SOOOOO, what is Best? ...I'd say real value. ...Honest Value, and quality 'sound result',
with beneficial human value: Music in the service of Worl's Peace, Happiness, Relaxation, Pleasure of the senses (EARS), and all that true jazz.

"One love" - Bob (Robert) Marley

Could you enlighten me which $50,000 cartridge, $100,000 (and up) phono section or $20,000 record cleaning machine you're referring to?

While you're at it, could you name the 'few' $650,000 turntables?

 

[MarinJim]

".And do they care if they pay 95% more than the actual value!?!"

Actually, I don't think they care, because they make there 95% of the money.

 

[NorthStar]

Could you enlighten me which $50,000 cartridge, $100,000 (and up) phono section or $20,000 record cleaning machine you're referring to?

While you're at it, could you name the 'few' $650,000 turntables?

---- No I can't. ...Because those are 'private' custom items; but they do exist.

* That $650,000 TT was already mentioned here at WBF, by its maker himself. ...Want the link?

** Cartridges (American mags; from what is publicly known): $15,000 (Davey was right).
...Two of them: One by Clearaudio, the other by Koetsu.
{But we don't know all the Japanese & German 'custom made' underworld.}

*** Phono Preamp: Vitus Audio MP-P201 Masterpiece is only $60,000
{And I got a strong sense that you can get one 'custom' built for much more than that.}

**** RCM: You can get some right now for $10,000 no? ...Add to that some other useful machines to complement...

________

The point is this Myles: Add all the small 'partitions' that are part of the total ensemble (analogue turntabling),
including the 'static guns', 'magnetic pucks', several type of brushes, liquids, ..., mats, tools for proper adjustments, etc., etc., etc. (if only you're into having the best most expensive stuff of course), and my figures are still quite 'reserved', today, and in the future.
I wanted to 'emphasize' my post as well, because like I just said; we don't live in the underworld, but the underworld is for sure revealing to us more and more.

Fiction in audio is closer than reality. ...And it's not true, of course not. It's a fantasy world, a reproduced artifact, a facsimile.
And some manufacturers/dealers/reviewers take full advantage of it.

 

[rbbert]

I did recently see a Web page with a chart of $100k+ speakers, IIRC there were about 35-40 models?

 

[MylesBAstor]

---- No I can't. ...Because those are 'private' custom items; but they do exist.

* That $650,000 TT was already mentioned here at WBF, by its maker himself. ...Want the link?

You said a few. ("True, you can find a few TTs for around $650,000+,") That implies more than one. You have named exactly one.

** Cartridges (American mags; from what is publicly known): $15,000 (Davey was right). ...Two of them
{But we don't know all the Japanese & German 'custom made' underworld.}

You said $20,000 to 50,000. I'm still waiting to hear what cartridge has a retail price of $50,000. For $20,000 you can get a Coralstone.

*** Phono Preamp: Vitus Audio MP-P201 Masterpiece is only $60,000
{And I got a strong sense that you can get one 'custom' built for much more than that.}

Again you said $100+. I'm still waiting.

**** RCM: You can get some right now for $10,000 no? ...Add to that some other useful machines to complement...

Last time I did math, $10,000 does not equal 20,000.

________

The point is this Myles: Add all the small 'partitions' that are part of the total ensemble (analogue turntabling),
including the 'static guns', 'magnetic pucks', several type of brushes, liquids, ..., mats, tools for proper adjustments, etc., etc., etc. (if only you're into having the best most expensive stuff of course), and my figures are still quite 'reserved', today, and in the future.


Fiction in audio is closer than reality.

The point is you were being flippant, were called on it and now can't back the figures you quoted. End of story.

PS. You'd be hard pressed to make up $40,000 in accessories for a solid-state phono section or $30,000 for a cartridge. Besides which, you specifically named equipment and now you're being disingenuous.

 

[KeithR]

What is the normal discount given by audio dealers there to the walk-in end user? Now that we have a scenario of less 85% from the factory, would the dealer not give even less 5% off the MSRP? Or maybe he gives 30% off the MSRP to the the end user?

I would be asking for 30% on super expensive gear. But that's just me.

 

[KeithR]

I believe that if there was ever going to be a high-end audio Hall of Fame, Dan would be in it for the work that he did at Krell. If I read everything correctly about Dan's new company and his new amp(s), it wasn't form follows function, it was function follows form. Dan knew what he wanted his new amp(s) to look like and he had to design the electronics around the amp sheet metal design. I have only heard the new amp once at RMAF 2011 and I wasn't bowled over, but that really doesn't count because it was an audio show with the gear in a hotel room. I believe they had the Onedork turntable playing an original RCA shaded dog noise machine recording. Yeah, I wasn't impressed. However, lots of people have heard Dan's new amp(s) and have plenty of good things to say about them. Never discount Dan's ability to design circuits, even if he crams them into a box that he thinks is sexy and others do too.

I'd like to hear a comparison of his new monos to the Evos he designed years ago as his reference. Surprised no one in the media has done this.

 

[FrantzM]

You said a few. ("True, you can find a few TTs for around $650,000+,") That implies more than one. You have named exactly one.



You said $20,000 to 50,000. I'm still waiting to hear what cartridge has a retail price of $50,000. For $20,000 you can get a Coralstone.



Again you said $100+. I'm still waiting.



Last time I did math, $10,000 does not equal 20,000.

________



The point is you were being flippant, were called on it and now can't back the figures you quoted. End of story.

PS. You'd be hard pressed to make up $40,000 in accessories for a solid-state phono section or $30,000 for a cartridge. Besides which, you specifically named equipment and now you're being disingenuous.

Myles

Yes he was being flippant and there is nothing wrong with that .. Indeed he can't back these figures .. but I would like to re-visit this thread a few months to see how off he was. The point is that prices continue to creep up. There will be soon a $50,000 Cartridge and you know it ... 6 months? 2 years?

 

[mep]

I wish that everyone would quit talking about the $650K turntable because it is one man's dream and is not a commercial reality and it's not for sale. It is a red herring in terms of people talking about a $650K table.

 

[Bill Hart]

I did recently see a Web page with a chart of $100k+ speakers, IIRC there were about 35-40 models?

It's probably at the Higher-Fi website. Kinda like the Robb Report classifieds for hi-fi. There was a magazine in the 80's that also did a 'lifestyles of the rich and famous' sort of "how much can we spend on conspicuous consumption of consumer goods" type rag. I think it was called Connoisseur but I may be wrong. Almost all that stuff depreciates like crazy. Which was going to be my other point~ that most of the high priced gear- even stuff that may have great merit and is not 'bling' can be had very reasonably used after the blush wears off. Buying same from an authorized dealer isn't a bad route.

 

[MarinJim]

I respect, no I believe in this website. However, all BS aside, we are talking about value, not high prices or low prices. What does one get for the money spent? Do you want "jewelry"? Fine. Do you want SOTA audio? Fine. Do you want video? Fine. Do you want it all? Not so fine, unless you LOVE research.

 

[treitz3]

Hello, MarinJim. All I want is the best effort we as humans can provide with regards to the reproductive effort. Within a certain level, price has no relation to performance or the end result as to what hits ones ears.

Tom

 

[Bill Hart]

I respect, no I believe in this website. However, all BS aside, we are talking about value, not high prices or low prices. What does one get for the money spent? Do you want "jewelry"? Fine. Do you want SOTA audio? Fine. Do you want video? Fine. Do you want it all? Not so fine, unless you LOVE research.

You have summarized the difference between a hobbyist and a consumer.

 

[NorthStar]

You said a few. ("True, you can find a few TTs for around $650,000+,") That implies more than one. You have named exactly one.



You said $20,000 to 50,000. I'm still waiting to hear what cartridge has a retail price of $50,000. For $20,000 you can get a Coralstone.



Again you said $100+. I'm still waiting.



Last time I did math, $10,000 does not equal 20,000.

________



The point is you were being flippant, were called on it and now can't back the figures you quoted. End of story.

PS. You'd be hard pressed to make up $40,000 in accessories for a solid-state phono section or $30,000 for a cartridge. Besides which, you specifically named equipment and now you're being disingenuous.

---- You're a funny guy Myles; and then you wonder when we asked audio manufacturers to justify the prices of certain of their products...

Furthermore, I explained clearly the why of my 'overall' post's emphasis, and then you went for each point.
Good, very good! ...Now let us be free to ask questions, on each point, to audio manufacturers, and audio reviewers.

I respect your questions, they are quite fair; respect ours, and let us be the judges for ourselves. :b

____________

"Disingenuous", really. Me? ...You want frankness Myles?
...I've already told you, my quoted prices were actually quite conservative.

 

[Bill Hart]

Hello, MarinJim. All I want is the best effort we as humans can provide with regards to the reproductive effort. Within a certain level, price has no relation to performance or the end result as to what hits ones ears.

Tom

Tom, there are so many double entrendres here, unintended, i am sure, but starting with 'reproductive effort,' followed by price having no relation to performance, and then something hitting you between the ears, it put me into a totally different frame of mind -one that has nothing to do with audio, though. If you remember, we had a Governor in NY who paid for the high priced spread, and it brought him down. Figuratively, of course.