Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[paskinn]

B

I wish that everyone would quit talking about the $650K turntable because it is one man's dream and is not a commercial reality and it's not for sale. It is a red herring in terms of people talking about a $650K table.

I know of one deck with a cost of at least one million dollars.The same guy has a system valued at around three million dollars, and that is without any digital sources, just analogue.I have seen and heard the system in the guys house.This stuff is very real..As one example, the output and mains tranformers are all wound with platinum wire-the phonostage alone weighs 300lb.BTW, He has a second $1000,000 deck.None of this is a joke, and the guy loves his system. Is it a rip-off? He doesn't think so, and he is a tough businessman who knows the value of things.Be glad he provides work for people in the industry.I have a normal system, and could never buy sky-high systems.But I like the fact that some people can, and do.For security reasons I won't give further details.But the deck, phonostage and speakers. were all handmade in the USA.Thats jobs for people.

 

[Andre Marc]

If there is price creep because the top most stuff is whatever one can get away with price-wise, then that does deserve scrutiny. Frankly, I thought the ARC stuff was generally less expensive than some of the boutique brands these days even though in the early days it was considered high priced compared to the competition- which wasn't as great as it is today.

My ear happens to be attuned to the way ARC gear is voiced..but man they are slowly pricing me out of the market.

 

[Andre Marc]

---- I just watched an excellent documentary few days ago on Ford Motor Company, of America (Detroit, Michigan).
...The full History on Henry Ford. ...Wow, some amazingly dirty tactics used by this guy!
...A dictator?!? ...And the guy who he hired in 1931; Harry Bennett! Ouch!
...An ex-boxer, a "tough guy" => http://www.reformation.org/henry-ford.html

* It must be somewhere on the web (that video reportage/documentary)... With tons of actual footage (b&w).

Anyhow, it was truly educative. ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Company

It has been my opinion that people who go on to the type of iconic success of a Henry Ford cannot do so
by being nice people. It is impossible. The difference between middle class people and the insanely wealthy is
is that someone like a Meg Whitman or equivalent can stomp on a newborn baby until it is nothing but chopped
meat and sleep peacefully at night.

 

[treitz3]

...Meg Whitman...

Grrr. 'Nuff said.

I hear you, whart.

Tom

 

[JackD201]

My ear happens to be attuned to the way ARC gear is voiced..but man they are slowly pricing me out of the market.

How much is a VS115? I'd say pretty reasonable. My take is that the existence of the REF amp family members doesn't take away anything from how good the 115 is. The 115 is still a darned good amp.

 

[NorthStar]

It has been my opinion that people who go on to the type of iconic success of a Henry Ford cannot do so
by being nice people. It is impossible. The difference between middle class people and the insanely wealthy is
is that someone like a Meg Whitman or equivalent can stomp on a newborn baby until it is nothing but chopped
meat and sleep peacefully at night.

---- Then I'll never be successful, in business. :b

 

[jadis]

How much is a VS115? I'd say pretty reasonable. My take is that the existence of the REF amp family members doesn't take away anything from how good the 115 is. The 115 is still a darned good amp.

Jack,

It's $7000 SRP but got a good discount from 'our friend'. Darned good alright.

 

[egidius]

Hi
I feel with you - Being a violinist I want "the best" but would never venture to buy crazyly priced gear, even though many people would think I do just that - my gear is ecclectic with Audio Consulting, Berning, Acustik Lab Stella, you name it - still never spend too much! And I know you have to work with it, not unlike the violin, which sorry, I have to go practizing ;-)

 

[Orb]

I did recently see a Web page with a chart of $100k+ speakers, IIRC there were about 35-40 models?

Yeah fits in with my point, the niche top end reference-statement trend is not necessarily the boundary of prices (when averaging and omitting certain extreme anomalies) but the fact more manufacturers are claiming products into this category so it is becoming broader and more noticable.
In the past the prices for the very top end statement products were still eye watering, but the important fact this was a limited category and crucially manufacturers' narrative was focused on their more day-to-day models and more accessible reference tier.
IMO this is where it is going wrong; the narrative from manufacturers and dealers is the focus on the niche category as it brings in the money now, but the downside is they lose the foundation of broader appeal and a future client base in the context of bringing new blood into high end audio.

Edit:
Just to add, its fair to say though the narrative-communications mistake of the high end is not a recent thing but goes back at least 1 decade, with it possibly starting around 2 decades ago IMO.
Cheers
Orb

 

[Orb]

Myles

Yes he was being flippant and there is nothing wrong with that .. Indeed he can't back these figures .. but I would like to re-visit this thread a few months to see how off he was. The point is that prices continue to creep up. There will be soon a $50,000 Cartridge and you know it ... 6 months? 2 years?

Problem though the debate is focusing on extremes, some of the very most expensive products are not even made by the established high end manufacturers.
As I said some will complain about the price of a Magico Q7 and ignore Magico has the very accessible S1, or complain about Wilson Audio and the XLF and again ignore Sophia3.
There are many more examples, and of course then there are those others as I say who name a price and are not necessarily one of the known established (in terms of either/all long term engineering-respect-quality-etc) trying to jump on the bandwagon.

How much do you really think the Concept Blade would had cost if KEF had decided to manufacturer this in small numbers?
Now if they manufacturerd the Muon that had a price comfortably over $150k in 2010 and has been around a little while (albeit last one sold early last year I think), and KEF says the Concept Blade would be too expensive this should provide some insights.
And by changing certain processes and cutting back from at any cost concept-statement they managed to bring the Blade to market at around $30k, so the very top tier reference-statement IS always going to be very expensive just in this example KEF decided not bring said Concept to market and focus on a more accessible-future foundation narrative to bring in customers (as in a previous example I mentioned KEF is one of those in the high end that has the right approach for a narrative to present to potential customers and audio fans).

Anyway I do feel these debates need to broaden beyond just the very extremes and also anomalies from the lesser/unknown manufacturers.
Just my feelings on this anyway, but yes some of those extremes are ludicrous, such as my mention of the Ken Kessler rant and even at a recent show an unknown/new manufacturer trying to sell a digital product at $80k-ish with limited information provided and presented (from what I remember in a audio magazine report questioning such behaviour).
But these are trying to jump into the trend, which is unfortunately the new narrative from many established manufacturers and dealers/distributors at the cost of their future foundation.
That said I am glad there are those top tier reference-statement products (the ones that may deemed to be more genuine), life would be more bland without such a category in the various sectors whether audio,cars,bikes,boats,etc, hopefully though audio will manage to bring itself back under control and a more thoughtful product-company narrative (which thankfully some high end is doing).
Cheers
Orb

 

[MarinJim]

IMHO the most expensive is not always the best, but we do need that class of audio gear, just as we need a 1000+ hp Bugatti.

 

[steve williams]

as a quick aside and very much OT have a look at this one to rival the Bugatti in every respect and 3X the price

now back on topic. Sorry. Couldn't resist

 

[Andre Marc]

as a quick aside and very much OT have a look at this one to rival the Bugatti in every respect and 3X the price

now back on topic. Sorry. Couldn't resist

I plan starting a new thread for the other extreme...extraordinary value product..I just
in for review some silver cables, a tube amp by a legendary designer, and a DAC/Integrated
amp. None over $2500.

 

[Orb]

Staying with off-topic, this is one of the shops we buy bed linen,etc from.
Now take a look at the price of this duvet, no we do not use that
Prices in £.
http://www.seymoursofdarlington.co.uk/schlossberg-empereur-warmth-4-12135-tog-/p1926
A duvet more expensive (look at price before current sale) than most peoples hifi system who complain about high end audio I would say
Great shop though if you are in UK, really nice service and can recommend them.
Or how about a £1.5k pillow
http://www.seymoursofdarlington.co.uk/schlossberg-principe-eiderdown-surround/p1929
Again no do not own but some friends roll their eyes at even entry high end pillows we do own even though we swear they are so comfortable-luxurious to sleep on.

Anyway this is an example of pointing out extremes, even in this sector these are well recognised brand names and not upcoming manufacturers trying to jump in with a price.
Cheers
Orb

 

[DaveyF]

as a quick aside and very much OT have a look at this one to rival the Bugatti in every respect and 3X the price

now back on topic. Sorry. Couldn't resist

You have to love the diamonds in the headlights, LOL. Pity they didn't include them in the tires as well

Now, IF we could just get some diamonds into our cables and ......Oh no, I feel a new trend coming on!

 

[Orb]

In the UK many many years ago the craze was to steal VW badges for some reason, VW owners will be sighing in relief with the focus on diamond headlights
Cheers
Orb

 

[Andre Marc]

I like your idea, and you might want to think about how you title that thread. Extraordinary value simply does not, as words, dispel that its not on par with the most expensive, which, in real world unbiased testing I think would almost always be the case. So, great idea, but the name of the thread needs to break through the expectation bias that value some how does not equate to best. Perhaps along the lines of "best sound without the added cost of bling"...just sayin...

either way, great idea Andre!

Good suggestion! I agree totally...

 

[zztop7]

Trickle Down Effect

Trickle Down Effect /// I am not sure if this has been brought up, but this is a wonderful result providing you have the ears to find the great interconnects/cables that shine with your system/ears @ pennies on the dollar.
zztop7

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

There is not doubt that there are good products at decent prices. There will always be decent priced products in any sector, sometimes from surprising sources: Once in a While a Radio Shack item or a Dodge car or ...(Slightly OT see P.S.).
I see however a reluctance to admit that prices have surged upward and not in line with performance. The top of the line price defines that of the middle of the line. In High End Audio many if not most of these high priced items are not one-offs like in a concept cars. No! They are regularly sold items that are part of the product line. The discussion moves toward the top as the standard bearer of the brand name, fame, reputation of if you want house sound and pricing strategy. Since it is impossible for any audiophile to audition all the gears he/she is interested under the best conditions,, the reputation and buzz around a product has a lot to do with its desirability and often perceived quality... The least expensive competition is lost in term of mind share. Not much attention is paid to it. An example from this year (2013) CES, I have heard a lot of good things about the Golden Technologies Triton speakers. Most people who've heard them are floored by their performance yet no one in this board would compare them with a Wilson Sasha or a Magico S5. I am not surmising that they are even their equal, I don't know, but their prices ($3,0000/pair) preclude this discussion, this comparison.. From the start ... The dreaded expression "For its price" lands in the narrative about lower priced products. The intrinsic value of the gear is no longer the point of comparison, rather the price becomes that.

The implication are to me obvious: Price defines the perceived quality or rather the assumed quality of performance in High End Audio.


P.S. There is a huge buzz around the Pioneer SB-22 @ $99 (no typo) the pair, reviewed by TAS Neil Gader. It was designed by Andre Jones of TAD fame. I ordered a pair just to know.

 

[Orb]

Frantz,
how about comparing that Triton to Magico S1 and Wilson Sophia3 (instead of Sasha).
Your again ignoring their cheapest model and going nearly double up in price
Could compare to KEF 203 mid level model, B&W 802d,etc if looking at other accessible priced high end.

The entry point is pretty competitve IMO with quite a lot of the established high end manufacturers, even if Magico S1, Sophia3 and some similar models are still out of the price of quite a few.
Same way a high spec BMW M3 used to be out of many drivers price range so customers went with a cheaper-the perceived entry point of a BMW "high end" car.
And if one could not afford the particular "high end" BMW, there was Audi,etc as the stepping stone (say going with an Audi S model while looking towards BMW M3/M5).

Cheers
Orb