Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[Bill Hart]

Good post. Here is how I think arbitrarily priced gear affects us all. When a few companies brazenly come to market with gear priced at what really seems priced to a selling point, it emboldends all the other companies to start to follow suit.

It happened with cables. Hobbyists were aghast when the first $1000 interconnect cable came around...they could not believe it. They all followed suit once they saw the first company get away with it.

Audio Research just raised their prices by $500. Now was that to cover their rising costs? Who knows? they now sell no gear under $5500.

And to your point, there certainly is expensive stuff that does deliver the goods.

If there is price creep because the top most stuff is whatever one can get away with price-wise, then that does deserve scrutiny. Frankly, I thought the ARC stuff was generally less expensive than some of the boutique brands these days even though in the early days it was considered high priced compared to the competition- which wasn't as great as it is today.

 

[Bill Hart]

One of these days, I'd love to buy you a beer.

An Artisanal micro brew made in Neuwe Brooklyne? Thanks, Felix. I don't drink any more but a sarsaparilla would be fine.

 

[DaveyF]

When you look at the pricing of high end, there does seem to be some interesting ceilings. For example, for TT's it's about $150K ( ok, forget the $650K one-off that was mentioned here a while back), for speakers it's about $200K and for cartridges it's about $15K. Cabling seems to be about $90K depending on length. Which brings me to my point...it would seem that the manufacturer's and the distributor's have somehow figured out where the maximum acceptable level for pricing is.
I would like to know how they got to these numbers...vs. pricing speakers up to say $15M or cabling to $8M...which to some may still be acceptable and to most would be simply just as ludicrous. Is this the $64K question..

 

[TBone]

Is this the $64K question

cute!

tb1

 

[andromedaaudio]

That cable better be very very very ... long , before i drop 90 K on wires , in 2 years time well have 400 K on speakers , quite a lot for " simple" magnet voicecoil membrane technique .
I ll definetively buy a 458 Italia first , contains much more high tech technique .
I personally dont mind to pay for real value , in high end it seems sometimes , the one with the most hocus pocus is the one taken most seriously , selling mysteries still works even at the 21 century

 

[Alan Sircom]

I don't think that we didn't know but rather that we didn't know how high the dealer margins for these two cable products are (of which I must admit that I have both in my system)

Dealer margins for wire have always been high, because cables used to be a sweetener in closing the system sale:

"Look, my boss is going to kill me, but [WHISPERS] I can let you have the $1,000 cable for $750, if you buy the system today... sound good? No, how about $500?"
"I'll tell you what... I'll throw in a set of (entry-level) loudspeaker cables to get the system up and running. Is that a deal or is that a deal?"

This is an all round win. The dealer stands to make money on the overall deal. The customer feels they got a sweet deal on the cables, either for increased smugnicity, or a quick and easy profit on Audiogon. Best of all, happy customer will tell his friends about that deal. More business for the retailer.

It stopped when Home Theater took hold in the late 1990s. Suddenly, because of the frankly lousy margins on AV equipment, 'attachment' sales like cables and tables became prime sources of profit, instead of prime sources of closing sales. That stuck even after the wheels started coming off the separates Home Theater wagon and dealers returned to the audio fold.

To me, the problem isn't the margins involved in cable. It's that many dealers are not using those margins to help close sales. I don't think this comes down to greed; they have just forgotten how to do it.

Interestingly, the places where cables sell well today are frequently the same places that have a significant and almost innate culture of haggling.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I can tell you that both D'Agostino and Levinson were booted (Levinson multiple times) from the firms they founded for spending lavishly,
bringing the companies to the the edge of bankruptcy, and for basically trying to live well beyond their means.

Levinson was one of the first companies to price gear at levels that really raised eyebrows if I remember correctly. I remember my dad
being shocked at the price tags of some of their stuff when I was a kid.

Perhaps you should have done some more homework on Dan. His spending was in now way linked to his leaving Krell. Much of it stemmed from the 2007 recession and losing his bank's credit line due to some chicanery. I think you realize that no company nowadays can exist without a credit line.

Not only that but Krell was perhaps the second biggest grossing company in high-end audio at one time (perhaps only behind Madrigal) pulling in revenues estimated from 30 to 50 million dollars a year. So please explain how Dan spent his way out of Krell?

 

[Andre Marc]

Perhaps you should have done some more homework on Dan. His spending was in now way linked to his leaving Krell. Much of it stemmed from the 2007 recession and losing his bank's credit line due to some chicanery. I think you realize that no company nowadays can exist without a credit line.

Not only that but Krell was perhaps the second biggest grossing company in high-end audio at one time (perhaps only behind Madrigal) pulling in revenues estimated from 30 to 50 million dollars a year. So please explain how Dan spent his way out of Krell?

I believe you are misinformed about Krell's financial health. There were lawsuits filed in connection to D'Ag leaving. You can do the research your self.

His spending was not a key issue...I agree.

 

[Andre Marc]

Perhaps you should have done some more homework on Dan. His spending was in now way linked to his leaving Krell. Much of it stemmed from the 2007 recession and losing his bank's credit line due to some chicanery. I think you realize that no company nowadays can exist without a credit line.

Not only that but Krell was perhaps the second biggest grossing company in high-end audio at one time (perhaps only behind Madrigal) pulling in revenues estimated from 30 to 50 million dollars a year. So please explain how Dan spent his way out of Krell?

Economics 101 is that companies sitting on piles of cash and revenue don't fall victim to hostile take overs.

 

[mep]

I believe you are misinformed about Krell's financial health. There were lawsuits filed in connection to D'Ag leaving. You can do the research your self.

His spending was not a key issue...I agree.

But you made it appear it was a key issue with your initial post.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I believe you are misinformed about Krell's financial health. There were lawsuits filed in connection to D'Ag leaving. You can do the research your self.

His spending was not a key issue...I agree.

Read all the lawsuits. BTW, Dan and Rondi are still stockholders in Krell.

And I've got much of this straight from the horses mouth.

Anything filed is just the normal claim/counterclaim in any lawsuit.

 

[MarinJim]

Some lady long ago talked her head off when she said "let them eat cake"

The Austrian lady in question never said that.

 

[Andre Marc]

But you made it appear it was a key issue with your initial post.

That was not my intention. I tell you what..he is much better off now. His new products have taken the industry by storm.

 

[mep]

That was not my intention. I tell you what..is he much better off now. His new products have taken the industry by storm.

"Is he" or he is? And why is he much better off now? Dan built Krell from the ground up to be a very successful company with lots of highly acclaimed products.

 

[Andre Marc]

"Is he" or he is? And why is he much better off now? Dan built Krell from the ground up to be a very successful company with lots of highly acclaimed products.

Shoot! Sorry. I meant he IS better off..in my opinion. Will edit.

 

[Andre Marc]

Read all the lawsuits. BTW, Dan and Rondi are still stockholders in Krell.

And I've got much of this straight from the horses mouth.

Anything filed is just the normal claim/counterclaim in any lawsuit.

Yes, that could be...but the lawsuits made clear Krell needed cash. That was clear as day.

 

[MarinJim]

That was not my intention. I tell you what..he is much better off now. His new products have taken the industry by storm.

I wonder how much some one is paying for the meter and fancy copper. Don't get me wrong, but I prefer something along the lines of say Hegel (as an example only) where I believe the money spent went into the insides. I love the look of Dan's new gear, but not willing to pay for it, IMHO.

 

[Andre Marc]

I wonder how much some one is paying for the meter and fancy copper. Don't get me wrong, but I prefer something along the lines of say Hegel (as an example only) where I believe the money spent went into the insides. I love the look of Dan's new gear, but not willing to pay for it, IMHO.

Well, he has a loyal following, and across the board, regardless of the glitzy appearance, the sound of the amp has been raved about.

 

[paskinn]

Fascinating, and educational. Can someone help me with one question: Krell built their reputation on variations of 'class a''amps. That was their usp.So how come that the new Agostino amp is class a/b, and yet has been repeatedly acclaimed as his best effort? If class a was not necessary, then were krell claims all hype? Or are Agostino claims, and reviews,hyped? The amps certainly look lovely, but when I heard them in a big system at the Munich show, the whole sound was less than captivating.Perhaps it was the room.

 

[mep]

I believe that if there was ever going to be a high-end audio Hall of Fame, Dan would be in it for the work that he did at Krell. If I read everything correctly about Dan's new company and his new amp(s), it wasn't form follows function, it was function follows form. Dan knew what he wanted his new amp(s) to look like and he had to design the electronics around the amp sheet metal design. I have only heard the new amp once at RMAF 2011 and I wasn't bowled over, but that really doesn't count because it was an audio show with the gear in a hotel room. I believe they had the Onedork turntable playing an original RCA shaded dog noise machine recording. Yeah, I wasn't impressed. However, lots of people have heard Dan's new amp(s) and have plenty of good things to say about them. Never discount Dan's ability to design circuits, even if he crams them into a box that he thinks is sexy and others do too.