Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[steve williams]

On Audiogon when I peruse members'systems IMO I find that almost always those who list the price of each piece of gear are the ones who got it discounted whereas those who don't list prices are usually the poor suckers who pay at or close to full list

 

[mep]

Ok. So who can get me a 1.5M Audioquest Diamond USB cable at a price much lower than list? Please send me a PM.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Ok. So who can get me a 1.5M Audioquest Diamond USB cable at a price much lower than list? Please send me a PM.

You need to become the close personal friend of a dealer, or an employee who gets a serious discount. When I was selling, I could buy most cables at 5% above cost. The mark-up on Audioquest was huge. I could have gotten you their cables for a few cents on the dollar. Of course I would have been fired for it.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

Francisco

I think you are somewhat short sighted here. The manufacturer gets 15-30% of every sale globally whereas the dealer gets 70-85% for each sale in their store. As I said, I don't drive a Rolls Royce

Steve,

First I addressed the Nordost case - 15% is quite different from 30% and I am reacting to this one. Second I am looking from the perspective of the consumer. My point is, if true (that I seriously doubt) , such margin is not acceptable for me. You should be aware that in terms percentage markup - the usual method to analyze business we have been informed of 466% and 233% percentage markups. The later is high, but justifiable in some cases.

 

[DonH50]

Decades ago when I was in the biz employee discount was cost + 10% (I got cost + 7% and considered myself lucky). Retail on most items was cost + 40% or so, accessories all over the map from 100% to 400% mark-up. The invoice did not show dealer incentives that reduced our cost below invoice. Back then, however, and on the high-end gear we carried (this was before the massive cable craze), incentives were fairly rare. They were more common with mass-produced gear that had volume incentives. The only time we routinely saw incentives on high-end gear was at product year-end or end-of-life to give us a chance to clear out the old and make way for the new.

 

[Shaffer]

FWIW, almost all of my cables were either free (gift/spiff from the manufacturer) or were purchased at accommodation pricing. Usually, 50% off dealer cost. The markup on the cables we sold wasn't huge - ~50%, less if purchased as a demo. Electronics were 40-45%, and most speakers were 50%. Then there were the special offers/overstocks. Those typically arrived by fax. Like a $2000 DAC for $450, but in all fairness it didn't happen that often.

Maybe things have changed in the last 10-15 years, and they likely have to some extent, but we used to classify very expensive components that weren't instantly recognizable by the market as unsellable. Those were usually sent to us as free demos, loans, in hopes of attracting a costumer. It gave us something very cool to display in the shop and we didn't have to pay for it. Win-win. Those pieces sold at a huge discount, if at all. Many were sent back and later then found their way to another dealer's display. Then another....

 

[JackD201]

Never heard of 85% or 70% on cables before. Largest offer I've seen is 60% but that required a HUGE volume quota.

 

[steve williams]

Never heard of 85% or 70% on cables before. Largest offer I've seen is 60% but that required a HUGE volume quota.

But Jack I don't think that you are a dealer forNordost or Transparent

 

[Andre Marc]

cars are commodities and there are multiple website where dealer invoice can be found. high end audio products are not really related. i think some jewelry, like high end watches, might be similar though.

I agree.

 

[Andre Marc]

Steve,

First I addressed the Nordost case - 15% is quite different from 30% and I am reacting to this one. Second I am looking from the perspective of the consumer. My point is, if true (that I seriously doubt) , such margin is not acceptable for me. You should be aware that in terms percentage markup - the usual method to analyze business we have been informed of 466% and 233% percentage markups. The later is high, but justifiable in some cases.

Sorry that you can't process the fact that the margins I quoted are real.

 

[Andre Marc]

Andre,

It is curious as you are painting the cable designers and manufacturers as the audiophiles good friends and the dealers as the bad guys. So Nordost pays for the research, manufacture, advertising, loans to reviewers, shows and warranty service and only get 15% of total retail price? Great people - they deserve to be considered as high-end benefactors!

Let me clarify the fact that I do NOT think dealers are the bad guys. The dealer I bought most of my first good system from 6 years ago was TOTALLY accommodating and they could not have been nicer.

 

[Andre Marc]

I call it honest reporting on Andre's part and welcome the news. As Frantz says this is a wire with a Zobel network. I commend him but hey that's just me. Anyone who brags about getting 10-20% back of MSRP on any cable is still getting fleeced

Steve, I am no one special. I just think it is time consumers are educated so that the gouging at the high end can be exposed to the light of day.

In the end, consumers must make decisions for them selves. If somebody thinks Nordost Odin is worth $50,000 for an eight foot run of speaker cable..let them pay.

 

[Andre Marc]

what would the manufacturers of the current products you are reviewing say if you listed their dealer net cost in your review?

why is what you wrote about Transparent or Nordost any different?

i'm not trying to get personal here; but it simply seems wrong to me for a reviewer (or any credible industry insider) to be quoting specific margins of specific manufacturers for high end products.

It not my job to publish the BOM and manufacturing cost of the products I review. You also should understand my beat. The most expensive product I have ever reviewed is the Thiel CS3.7, which I believe is UNDERPRICED. Sorry but it perturbs me to no end that pair of Tara Labs ICs cost more than this speaker.

The average component cost in my review portfolio is around 3 grand. I promise you Rogue Audio, Marantz, Belles, and Paradigm do not gouge. Or I would have said so in my reviews.

 

[Andre Marc]

honest reporting

As I said, I am no hero. I just don't associate with manufacturers who are looking soak the rich.

The most expensive cable I have ever reviewed is the Kimber KCTG, which is 6 strands of ultra pure silver, with pure silver WBTs. The WBTs alone cost over $200. The .5 meter pair sells for around $1000. Hardly a gouge in my opinion.

 

[Andre Marc]

Never heard of 85% or 70% on cables before. Largest offer I've seen is 60% but that required a HUGE volume quota.

As I said...those margins are for exclusives. For instance, my local dealer ONLY carries Transparent. There are NO other cables sold in this location. How much is it worth to Transparent to have no competition?

 

[NorthStar]

-- One of the most educative thread and intelligent discussion of recent memory.

 

[Bruce B]

what they have is a link to buy it, just like a camera review. and lots of mail order sources.

again; totally different market place.

i'll bet you did not buy your Grimm that way.

I got my Grimm for $6275.00 directly from the factory. These are "made to order". I think MSRP is around $15k

Do you want to know any other prices?

 

[JackD201]

But Jack I don't think that you are a dealer forNordost or Transparent

No I'm not. The cable brands I carry come nowhere close. Offers for me to carry don't come close either.

Still, I'm with DonH. Everybody has got a right to name his selling price and the right to determine his point system just as everybody can make his own value judgements. If those don't match up, they don't. No problem.

 

[DaveyF]

Steve, I am no one special. I just think it is time consumers are educated so that the gouging at the high end can be exposed to the light of day.

In the end, consumers must make decisions for them selves. If somebody thinks Nordost Odin is worth $50,000 for an eight foot run of speaker cable..let them pay.

Like Bob said, this has turned into one of the most interesting threads of late. Andre, I respect what you say and believe your philosophy is correct. What you say about
Nordost's Odin being worth $50,000 is very correct, however, to some buyer's that is chump change! I think Mike L's point in an earlier post about manufacturer's banking on the Asian
market is also spot on. Why, because IF I am a small manufacturer of high end gear and I can build a speaker or cable or?? for say $500- and sell it via my Asian distributor for $50,000...
well that's my BIG SEXY GOAL! Do I really give a hoot if a reviewer call me out in the western press...heck no! Remember, all of my western sales are simply icing on the cake as far as I
am concerned.
Andre, I also concur with what you say about consumer's being educated...unfortunately, I suspect that as long as the "safety net" of the Asian market exists, then this will be a major
uphill battle- with many manufacturer's pushing back. ( Not all, but those who rely on this business plan...for sure).

Lastly, I do think that many of the posts on this thread by reviewer's, could easily be misinterpreted by the readers. I for one, will assume that all those posting- have the consumer's best
interest's at heart.

 

[c1ferrari]

On Audiogon when I peruse members'systems IMO I find that almost always those who list the price of each piece of gear are the ones who got it discounted whereas those who don't list prices are usually the poor suckers who pay at or close to full list

Hi Steve,

In my instance, I'm frequently unaware of MSRP as a substantial allocation of my gear portfolio is via secondary market acquisition.