Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[microstrip]

I repeat..Transparent offers 70% margin for an exclusive. Nordost 85%. Those are 100% accurate numbers. I have no idea about ten years ago.

Are you referring to the whole ranges of both manufacturers?

 

[Andre Marc]

Are you referring to the whole ranges of both manufacturers?

Yes, although in the fine print, some of the "entry level" stuff might require bulk purchases.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I repeat..Transparent offers 70% margin for an exclusive. Nordost 85%. Those are 100% accurate numbers. I have no idea about ten years ago.

I own Transparent cables (not Opus!) and I know exactly how much they cost the dealer. I paid retail btw...as I roll
with the lowly Super designation.

for sh*ts and giggles let's assume you are right.

how do the publications you represent feel about you talking about those margins? i know if i was a manufacturer you would be radioactive to me as a reviewer.

i'm just trying to understand if there is a line that an industry insider needs to not cross or not.

or maybe all is fair these days and it does not matter.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Well, I'm sure you've been a few places Myles, but your comments about not questioning prices, etc., might've worked for the old guard back when, but I don't think they work today.

Also, it's not one-upmanship when talking about experience with certain things. Since 2000, I've been in charge of our speaker measurements at NRC. From before then, until now, I've focused a lot of attention on loudspeaker design and manufacturing because, for some reason, I like to see how these things are made.

So when I ask questions, it isn't shooting from the hip. In fact, at RMAF I was in a room asking plenty of pointed questions to one excellent designer who turned to his boss midway and said, "I told you, sooner or later questions like these come around."

I ask questions -- lots of questions. So that base is covered thanks.

On the other hand, a reviewer who doesn't ask these questions is doing his or her readership a disservice. Remember, this is reviewing (critiquing), not simply writing their marketing material.

Doug Schneider

Excuse me Doug but where did I ever say that "prices shouldn't be questioned?" You said that, I didn't. I think that if you cut and pasted my posts, you'd see a pretty coherent thought process about industry pricing emerge.

All along, I've been talking about educating the readers about ALL the costs involved in bringing a product to market and making sure to cross your 'T's' and dot your 'i's'. There are a lot business decisions out there that are driven by the dealer and not by the manufacturer too.

 

[Andre Marc]

for sh*ts and giggles let's assume you are right.

how do the publications you represent feel about you talking about those margins? i know if i was a manufacturer you would be radioactive to me as a reviewer.

i'm just trying to understand if there is a line that an industry insider needs to not cross or not.

or maybe all is fair these days and it does not matter.

Now I am REALLY confused. Who said there is anything WRONG with those margins?

Big dealer margins have been the deal for decades. The rise of direct from factory and e-tailors has taken a big bite
out of brick an mortar dealers because of this.

These margins are not some deep and dark secret. If someone is willing to pay $22,000 for a Transparent Opus IC, and they knew that
$15,400 was going to the dealer..would they not buy the cable?

I assure you, with entire room filled with unopened boxes full of amps and speakers, my relationship with manufacturers is excellent. Not because I am special, but because I return equipment undamaged, in a timely manner, and I stick to my publication schedule, and I shoot straight.

I just off the phone with a manufacturer who told me how much it cost him to build a integrated amp. He assumes it is common knowledge that he gives dealers 40 points.

Again, why is dealer margin some big secret? The only ones that don't like are the ones who offer 1500 bucks worth of copper, silver, and plastic (including labor) for thirty five grand.

 

[Andre Marc]

for sh*ts and giggles let's assume you are right.

how do the publications you represent feel about you talking about those margins? i know if i was a manufacturer you would be radioactive to me as a reviewer.

i'm just trying to understand if there is a line that an industry insider needs to not cross or not.

or maybe all is fair these days and it does not matter.

Asking for dealer invoice when buying a car is par for the course.

Audio dealers used to justify their luxurious margins because they claimed they were
in a "consultative" role. Most of them now are "order takers", as one manufacturer told me.

 

[Bruce B]

Asking for dealer invoice when buying a car is par for the course.
.

Mike can tell you this but dealers don't pay invoice. There are so many dealer incentives and programs that you don't see.

 

[Andre Marc]

Mike can tell you this but dealers don't pay invoice. There are so many dealer incentives and programs that you don't see.

Yes, I know. A college buddy of mine works for a BMW dealership. But the invoice check is a game that everyone plays.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Asking for dealer invoice when buying a car is par for the course.

Audio dealers used to justify their luxurious margins because they claimed they were
in a "consultative" role. Most of them now are "order takers", as one manufacturer told me.

cars are commodities and there are multiple website where dealer invoice can be found. high end audio products are not really related. i think some jewelry, like high end watches, might be similar though.

 

[microstrip]

Andre,

It is curious as you are painting the cable designers and manufacturers as the audiophiles good friends and the dealers as the bad guys. So Nordost pays for the research, manufacture, advertising, loans to reviewers, shows and warranty service and only get 15% of total retail price? Great people - they deserve to be considered as high-end benefactors!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, I know. A college buddy of mine works for a BMW dealership. But the invoice check is a game that everyone plays.

some high end car dealers do make money in their new car department; but the majority of new car dealers do not. as far as margin on most new cars, it is pitiful really even with any factory money included. the marketplace is so agressive that any factory money quickly simply lowers the transaction costs and gets passed on to consumers. it's about market share, not net....except for factory shareholders.

a car dealer is suppose to stay in business thru used cars and service sales. and considering the amount of capital it now requires to purchase and run a car dealership it's a wonder it makes any sense.

not complaining; that is the way the world works.

 

[c1ferrari]

Just Began Reading This Thread...

--> KBK: this post compels me to learn about your commercial efforts.

I've mentioned this before:

IF I work hard at doing my best and then give it away...you know what?

Nobody shows up.

The ones who DO show up tend to be the type who whine and want an even better price, even though you are already killing yourself in that given product at the given price.

Pardon me, I'm a bit bitter about the idea of there being a reward for those who do their best.

For I've never seen it, after many a try.

It's that line, 'no good deed goes unpunished'.

So instead, It is just normal pricing for the products in their respective quality class.

For example, twice now, I've heard back from differing retailers (depending on the business I'm involved in that is being spoken of) that some established companies have delivered direct threats to their retailers, if those retailers should try and sell or stock the given product that I'm involved in. The bargain vs quality is perceived to be enough of a threat (market disruptor) to the given market model and established companies ...that they threaten their own retailers.

The retailers, many time, also agree. They want to sell expensive established items, within that given market category... that have good solid return....due to high margins and due to market perception. They do not want to rock the boat of their own customers and go from a "pull market" (customer comes into buy and spend) to a "push market" (customer has to be convinced to buy). It is tough enough to make a living in this environment.

Thus, human perception and human mental position, and motion through life... is screwing over the very core of what you are proposing with this thread. Lord knows I've tried and all I ever managed to get out of it is starvation, market rejection, and marginalization.

You are talking about fighting the city hall that is built in the core of the vast majority of people, as they exist and integrate in this market and world of audio. It matters not that it will run off a cliff, it will regardless of what anyone says or does. Like a heart on a decapitated body, the last beats will be the same as the prior beats....excepting that those last ones will be the most desperate and strongest.

The only way it is ever going happen, is that you are going to have to hold the market down, as it exists today ---and punch a knife through it's heart. Good luck with that.

Human nature.

 

[steve williams]

for sh*ts and giggles let's assume you are right.

how do the publications you represent feel about you talking about those margins? i know if i was a manufacturer you would be radioactive to me as a reviewer.

i'm just trying to understand if there is a line that an industry insider needs to not cross or not.

or maybe all is fair these days and it does not matter.

I call it honest reporting on Andre's part and welcome the news. As Frantz says this is a wire with a Zobel network. I commend him but hey that's just me. Anyone who brags about getting 10-20% back of MSRP on any cable is still getting fleeced

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Now I am REALLY confused. Who said there is anything WRONG with those margins?

Big dealer margins have been the deal for decades. The rise of direct from factory and e-tailors has taken a big bite
out of brick an mortar dealers because of this.

These margins are not some deep and dark secret. If someone is willing to pay $22,000 for a Transparent Opus IC, and they knew that
$15,400 was going to the dealer..would they not buy the cable?

I assure you, with entire room filled with unopened boxes full of amps and speakers, my relationship with manufacturers is excellent. Not because I am special, but because I return equipment undamaged, in a timely manner, and I stick to my publication schedule, and I shoot straight.

I just off the phone with a manufacturer who told me how much it cost him to build a integrated amp. He assumes it is common knowledge that he gives dealers 40 points.

Again, why is dealer margin some big secret? The only ones that don't like are the ones who offer 1500 bucks worth of copper, silver, and plastic (including labor) for thirty five grand.

what would the manufacturers of the current products you are reviewing say if you listed their dealer net cost in your review?

why is what you wrote about Transparent or Nordost any different?

i'm not trying to get personal here; but it simply seems wrong to me for a reviewer (or any credible industry insider) to be quoting specific margins of specific manufacturers for high end products.

 

[steve williams]

Andre,

It is curious as you are painting the cable designers and manufacturers as the audiophiles good friends and the dealers as the bad guys. So Nordost pays for the research, manufacture, advertising, loans to reviewers, shows and warranty service and only get 15% of total retail price? Great people - they deserve to be considered as high-end benefactors!

Francisco

I think you are somewhat short sighted here. The manufacturer gets 15-30% of every sale globally whereas the dealer gets 70-85% for each sale in their store. As I said, I don't drive a Rolls Royce

 

[steve williams]

what would the manufacturers of the current products you are reviewing say if you listed their dealer net cost in your review?

honest reporting

 

[Bruce B]

I call it honest reporting on Andre's part and welcome the news. As Frantz says this is a wire with a Zobel network. I commend him but hey that's just me. Anyone who brags about getting 10-20% back of MSRP on any cable is still getting fleeced

Every single review on the Pro side has 2 prices.... MSRP and "Street Price". At least that's a start.

 

[steve williams]

Street price varies from street to street unfortunately which is a game played by the dealer with customers who have to swear on a stack of bibles that they won't tell their audiophile buddies what the deal is. Or how about some who I know that even get some of their gear for free. With all those savings I bet they can also drive a Rolls Royce

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Every single review on the Pro side has 2 prices.... MSRP and "Street Price". At least that's a start.

what they have is a link to buy it, just like a camera review. and lots of mail order sources.

again; totally different market place.

i'll bet you did not buy your Grimm that way.

 

[FrantzM]

With such devoted customers on their side, you can understand the current High End Audio Price Structure ... And it is not only customers