Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
I have had several cable manufacturers offer me 66-80% accomodation. That's the mark-up in cables folks!
Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive
- Thread starter MarinJim
- Start date
I have had several cable manufacturers offer me 66-80% accomodation. That's the mark-up in cables folks!
You are proving a first 85% dealer with a new 70% statement. From now on, unless you show a direct proof of the 85% I see no reason to believe in this value.
BTW, I hope you were not shown invoices of demo cables - sometimes, just to help dealers showing them, they are sold at a fraction of distribution price. But the dealer can not sell them, and most time they have special serial numbers and marks.
Few people take their time to truly ask what is in a cable beyond the pretty face ... From the manufacturer margins of over 10 times the cost are not unheard of... With that kind of profit you don't need to sell a millions of feet to drive Rolls.
No. Reread.
I said NORDOST gives 85%, and Transparent give 70%. Two separate manufacturers.
These are FACTS my friend.
Maybe you were in such a rush to reply because you are mad you helped buy your dealer a new Mercedes.
Let's put things into perspective. Nordost Odin is silver plated copper, plastic, and metal connectors.
Bruce,
You are not an usual customer - manufacturers should pay you to use their cables. You are the best advertisement of any manufacturer!
Bruce,
You are not an usual customer - manufacturers should pay you to use their cables. You are the best advertisement of any manufacturer!
Still not believing? LOL.
No Andre, poor analysis. I have to say I bought all my "expensive" cables used at very nice prices, so I am out of anger ...
Considering exclusives, many Nordost dealers are Transparent dealers in Europe and carry also several other brands. If Nordost would offer them 85% discount they would never sell a Transparent again ...
Why are we even surprised at these type of margins? Look at a piece of cabling? How much does this cost to make? Recovering R&D? Yeah right.
I have always know you buy a cable you get shafted. My solution as a consumer is to buy fully depreciated cables only. Rarely lost a penny on cables, made some money on some. Paying full retail? Not in a million years.
Understood.
If the dealer is selling multiple cable lines then they are getting lower margins. Also, International distribution deals can be totally different
than in the US.
Random thoughts:
Not sure a manufacturer has to state his costs nor justify in terms of cost/profit/ROI to us. If a manufacturer has $10 or $1000 in components and charges $100k for a speaker then it is up to him (manufacturer) to decide what the market will bear (i.e. what he can get away with) and us to decide if it is worth the cost. I expect there to be some justification for the price, i.e. marketing, but have found that may or may not have any real basis. Those who don't justify the cost to consumers won't survive...
That said, I appreciate reviewers who try to find out the "why" behind the design and cost; years of research, exotic materials, both, or maybe a guy in a garage out to earn a few bucks before folk catch on... Of course, some big companies have started in a garage (or its equivalent).
I tend to find the better designs have more R&D behind them, as well as better components. Whether I can justify, let alone afford, a $100k speaker over a $10k speaker is another matter, but that's my problem, not the manufacturer's. Is a Bryston, let alone Boulder, amp better than my Emotiva? In a lot ways, probably, but not enough to my ears and finances to kick the kids out of college.
My somewhat limited observation is that there seem to be a lot more super-expensive (to me) products around now than a decade or two ago, and also perhaps more focus on them in various media outlets.
A lot of people associate "what's best" with "most expensive", but many do not, and looking through threads and reviews there seems to be as much debate about which $10k+ ampliifer sounds best as which $1k amplifier. That is, plenty of debate at every price point...
Not sure a manufacturer has to state his costs nor justify in terms of cost/profit/ROI to us. If a manufacturer has $10 or $1000 in components and charges $100k for a speaker then it is up to him (manufacturer) to decide what the market will bear (i.e. what he can get away with) and us to decide if it is worth the cost. I expect there to be some justification for the price, i.e. marketing, but have found that may or may not have any real basis. Those who don't justify the cost to consumers won't survive...
That said, I appreciate reviewers who try to find out the "why" behind the design and cost; years of research, exotic materials, both, or maybe a guy in a garage out to earn a few bucks before folk catch on... Of course, some big companies have started in a garage (or its equivalent).
I tend to find the better designs have more R&D behind them, as well as better components. Whether I can justify, let alone afford, a $100k speaker over a $10k speaker is another matter, but that's my problem, not the manufacturer's. Is a Bryston, let alone Boulder, amp better than my Emotiva? In a lot ways, probably, but not enough to my ears and finances to kick the kids out of college.
My somewhat limited observation is that there seem to be a lot more super-expensive (to me) products around now than a decade or two ago, and also perhaps more focus on them in various media outlets.
A lot of people associate "what's best" with "most expensive", but many do not, and looking through threads and reviews there seems to be as much debate about which $10k+ ampliifer sounds best as which $1k amplifier. That is, plenty of debate at every price point...
Err,
I thought all of us knew that the one area dealers made their money (or help to keep their business afloat) was the cables, more so than than the system-components.
What surprised me is the news Transparent margin is around the 30% range with the margin heavily biased for dealer margin, tbh it is a fine busines model but they are not ripping people off with that product margin.
Much of the telecom industry has margins over 60% for themselves before the various sales channels even become involved.
Other manufacturing industries the magic number is hitting above 40%, ignore the car industry as that is woe woe woe
Key is pushing a dealer for a reasonable discount, although I assume they are locked into not giving excessive discounts for most products or risk being dropped.
I am ok with what has come to light when considering manufacturing and business model as a whole, but I guess a fair few may feel different lol.
Cheers
Orb
I thought all of us knew that the one area dealers made their money (or help to keep their business afloat) was the cables, more so than than the system-components.
What surprised me is the news Transparent margin is around the 30% range with the margin heavily biased for dealer margin, tbh it is a fine busines model but they are not ripping people off with that product margin.
Much of the telecom industry has margins over 60% for themselves before the various sales channels even become involved.
Other manufacturing industries the magic number is hitting above 40%, ignore the car industry as that is woe woe woe
Key is pushing a dealer for a reasonable discount, although I assume they are locked into not giving excessive discounts for most products or risk being dropped.
I am ok with what has come to light when considering manufacturing and business model as a whole, but I guess a fair few may feel different lol.
Cheers
Orb
Well, I'm sure you've been a few places Myles, but your comments about not questioning prices, etc., might've worked for the old guard back when, but I don't think they work today.
Also, it's not one-upmanship when talking about experience with certain things. Since 2000, I've been in charge of our speaker measurements at NRC. From before then, until now, I've focused a lot of attention on loudspeaker design and manufacturing because, for some reason, I like to see how these things are made.
So when I ask questions, it isn't shooting from the hip. In fact, at RMAF I was in a room asking plenty of pointed questions to one excellent designer who turned to his boss midway and said, "I told you, sooner or later questions like these come around."
I ask questions -- lots of questions. So that base is covered thanks.
On the other hand, a reviewer who doesn't ask these questions is doing his or her readership a disservice. Remember, this is reviewing (critiquing), not simply writing their marketing material.
Doug Schneider
you are confusing 'accomodation' to reviewers and salespeople with 'dealer net'.
these are three different numbers for high end manufacturers.
i'm not saying they are the same for every manaufacturer, or even every reviewer or brick and morter salesperson will get the same accomodation. but if high end cables were offered to you at these discounts, that has little to do with what the dealer might pay. the manufacturer has a stake in you or the salesperson using the products and consider that an advertising cost.
typically dealers will get anywhere form 40 to 55 points from retail for traditional manufacturers dealing exclusively with brick and morter retail outlets.
another big issue is that high end dealers in Asia and their needs and how their customers make decisions have much to do with how goods are priced. that market is the 800 pound gorrila in the room. as long as that money is out there logic in pricing is really not a big part of the equation.
No. No confusion. The margins I quoted are dealer margin. We are talking cables. Speakers and electronics are closer are usually between 40 and 50%.
I am not understanding all the skepticism. I clearly no how the business works and the differences between accomodation and dealer net.
Nor do I ...
Cables people . You may be very docile about these and they may bring you happiness. They remain by far the highest margin items in Audio be it High End or mid-fi.
i only know with certainty how it works with Transparent and Nordost; as i was a Transparent Opus and Nordost Valhalla owner for 10 years and had more than one opportunity to see the facts from multiple sources.....from large brick and morter dealers. i know what the dealer net was, and what a salesperson could buy the cables for. it was in the range i mentioned.
but hey, you might be right and i could be wrong.
maybe there is a back-door kick back going on somewhere, but not likely.
I repeat..Transparent offers 70% margin for an exclusive. Nordost 85%. Those are 100% accurate numbers. I have no idea about ten years ago.
I own Transparent cables (not Opus!) and I know exactly how much they cost the dealer. I paid retail btw...as I roll
with the lowly Super designation.
Now that is foreign to me as I don't eat that crap.
BTW you guys are champs also at putting words in people's mouths.
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