Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[MylesBAstor]

I am not understanding your application of this, Myles. So two direct questions:

1. Is it not fair to ask a manufacturer to show you (press) why a product costs what it does, particularly if it is very expensive?

2. When we (press) clearly sees that a product is not what the company claims it to be, is it not our job to point that out?

For the record, my answer is "yes" to both.

What don't you understand Jeff? Getting your facts down and straight before reporting on any subject matter before publishing is simply good journalism 101. Not to mention having all your facts right before rushing into publication to get a scoop as is so often the case in today's audio world.

OTOH interestingly, when's the last time anyone asked BMW or Ferrari to justify their cost?

 

[das]

Just out of curiosiity, what do you consider good journalism?

Asking questions like the ones we do -- that's a start.

But what do you call good "reviewing"? Doesn't it have something to do with critiquing a product, including all aspects of it?

Doug Schneider

 

[Gregadd]

Frankly, I want the manufacturer to "show me" why it costs what it does. They should be able to. I know many in the press that are not comfortable with this line of questioning and these types of articles.

Why does the Q7 cost $185k?

 

[FrantzM]

What don't you understand Jeff? Getting your facts down and straight before reporting on any subject matter before publishing is simply good journalism 101. Not to mention having all your facts right before rushing into publication to get a scoop as is so often the case in today's audio world.

Hi

I suppose then when we see reports that such and such bearings cost $5000 to produce that due diligence has been exercised to establish the veracity of such claim.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Asking questions like the ones we do -- that's a start.

But what do you call good "reviewing"? Doesn't it have something to do with critiquing a product, including all aspects of it?

Doug Schneider

You've managed to twist what I was saying very poorly. All I was saying is that you better do your homework before making accusations. Not that critiquing a product is bad.

 

[microstrip]

(...)

1. Is it not fair to ask a manufacturer to show you (press) why a product costs what it does, particularly if it is very expensive?
2. When we (press) clearly sees that a product is not what the company claims it to be, is it not our job to point that out?

For the record, my answer is "yes" to both.

Yes to both. But the manufacturer should not be any way obliged to answer your questions, and should not be criticized if he chooses not to answer. And if you want to go 2 you have to document yourselves, take your precious time and resources, reverse engineer the product and build a complete case. IMHO you can not base it on information and word of mouth.

And unless you do it systematically, you are not doing any good to the market. You are just spotting the few easy to detect cases or those of naive manufacturers.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

What don't you understand Jeff? Getting your facts down and straight before reporting on any subject matter before publishing is simply good journalism 101. Not to mention having all your facts right before rushing into publication to get a scoop as is so often the case in today's audio world.

OTOH interestingly, when's the last time anyone asked BMW or Ferrari to justify their cost?

I just wanted you to answer two questions, that's all.

Let's look at the "facts": the speaker in question has an SB Acoustics tweeter that retails for a few hundred bucks (being generous here). Two off-the-shelf woofers in a nicely finished MDF box. And it costs $48,000. And we should not question them because of what BMW and Ferrari do. Uh, OK.

I'm pretty comfortable with our method journalism.

 

[das]

You've managed to twist what I was saying very poorly. All I was saying is that you better do your homework before making accusations. Not that critiquing a product is bad.

Actually, I think we do a pretty good job of that. I started doing this in 1995. Since that time, I've been to too many companies to remember off the top of my head in order not just to see what they're doing, but get a thorough understanding of design and manufacturing processes. We also do some pretty rigorous testing ourselves, which few magazines do. So it's not hard for me to ask questions -- which I do -- and have a good idea if there's an attempt to pull the wool over someone's eyes or not.

What's quite funny, Myles, is doing this seems so foreign to you but, in fact, readers as well as many manufacturers like that we look as deeply into products as we do. It's all part of that reviewing thing...

Doug Schneider

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Actually, I think we do a pretty good job of that. I started doing this in 1995. Since that time, I've been to too many companies to remember off the top of my head in order not just to see what they're doing, but get a thorough understanding of design and manufacturing processes. We also do some pretty rigorous testing ourselves, which few magazines do. So it's not hard for me to ask questions -- which I do -- and have a good idea if there's an attempt to pull the wool over someone's eyes or not.

What's quite funny, Myles, is doing this seems so foreign to you but, in fact, readers as well as many manufacturers like that we look as deeply into products as we do. It's all part of that reviewing thing...

Doug Schneider

Well stated. Some highlights: JL Audio and Paradigm -- I've been to both. These companies have tremendous engineering departments, comprehensive manufacturing capabilities and real testing facilities; also real economies of scale. These products are benchmarks because of what the companies do inside. And they both love to show it off. On the other end of the price scale, have you ever seen what goes into the composite cabinet of a Rockport? I've been to Rockport and it is an impressive process. I've been to Magico, too. Have you ever seen COMSOL or a Klippel system at work while designing drivers? I've seen raw neodymium magnets on woofers larger than the bigger ferrites on a common driver. These are a few of the reasons these products cost what they do.

So yes, when I see an SB Acoustics tweeter in a three-driver speaker costing $48k I feel on safe ground calling "BS."

 

[Andre Marc]

Well stated. Some highlights: JL Audio and Paradigm -- I've been to both. These companies have tremendous engineering departments, comprehensive manufacturing capabilities and real testing facilities; also real economies of scale. These products are benchmarks because of what the companies do inside. And they both love to show it off. On the other end of the price scale, have you ever seen what goes into the composite cabinet of a Rockport? I've been to Rockport and it is an impressive process. I've been to Magico, too. Have you ever seen COMSOL or a Klippel system at work while designing drivers? I've seen raw neodymium magnets on woofers larger than the bigger ferrites on a common driver. These are a few of the reasons these products cost what they do.

So yes, when I see an SB Acoustics tweeter in a three-driver speaker costing $48k I feel on safe ground calling "BS."

Jeff:

Thank you very much for your posts. You have stumbled on a real hot topic for me..and that is what to me seems
total and ARBITRARY pricing of high end products. This has been a trend I have seen rearing its ugly head for some
time now. It boggles the mind.

It is time that we, the audio, press call "bullshit" on this game, as Art Dudley so nicely put it in his infamous column.

There are many so called reviewers who drink what ever Kool Aid is handed to them, and claim ecstasy with every bizarre
tweak and so called system enhancement scheme that comes their way.

 

[zztop7]

Stitch & GoodSoundClub

I have seen the following, and I am going to quote someone who goes by the name of Stitch:

"That is the way the System works. Not the customer is the goal (he is only the tool who brings the money), the reviewer is the one to go for. The reviewer guarantees the success of a product (in general). Valin for example is known to be among the most corrupt guys in that Industry, but his ability to write keeps him in business. And the other guys aren't much better. The customer (you) gets exactly what he deserves.
My last visit at a High End Show was in a room where lots of people refused to leave, the sound was really, really good. But it was presented from some new, imported brands.

My Buddy: Hey Stitch, that amp is so fantastic, I never heard anything which comes close. Superb, absolutely superb.

Stitch: Yes. Are you going to buy it???
Buddy: No. I will wait for the first reviews.
Stitch: Why? You listened to it for more than 1h and it is the way you said.
Buddy: Yes, But I want to know what the reviewers think about......

The customers don't trust their own ears, opinion and the Manufacturers know that. The customer is no force here.

Happy Listening
Kind Regards
Stitch

Further credit should go to "GoodSoundClub"

Respectfully,
zz

 

[MylesBAstor]

I just wanted you to answer two questions, that's all.

Let's look at the "facts": the speaker in question has an SB Acoustics tweeter that retails for a few hundred bucks (being generous here). Two off-the-shelf woofers in a nicely finished MDF box. And it costs $48,000. And we should not question them because of what BMW and Ferrari do. Uh, OK.

I'm pretty comfortable with our method journalism.

And based upon what you're saying, you're pretty secure with gonzo journalism too.

All I'm saying is that you better have your ducks in a row before shooting from the hip.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Actually, I think we do a pretty good job of that. I started doing this in 1995. Since that time, I've been to too many companies to remember off the top of my head in order not just to see what they're doing, but get a thorough understanding of design and manufacturing processes. We also do some pretty rigorous testing ourselves, which few magazines do. So it's not hard for me to ask questions -- which I do -- and have a good idea if there's an attempt to pull the wool over someone's eyes or not.

What's quite funny, Myles, is doing this seems so foreign to you but, in fact, readers as well as many manufacturers like that we look as deeply into products as we do. It's all part of that reviewing thing...

Doug Schneider

Well Doug I've been doing it for a decade longer than you and it ain't so foreign to me. And I've been to more than a few companies, dealers and record labels too in my day. So we don't need to get into one upsmanship and namedropping.

What seem foreign to you is the conept of getting all your facts together when doing investigative reporting. I think that all the areas that I asked for are quite reasonable when judging the cost of a product.

Not only that--but readers of SSN and WBF--need to know what goes into the cost of a product. I don't think everyone is on the same page as far as how equipment is priced. There are a lot of hidden costs that people don't see (like the cost of lending out a 100K in equipment to reviewers as one manufacturer once found out).

 

[puroagave]

Porsche did a study in the late nineties of the number of potential buyers worldwide for a $500k car their research showed 17 million. They had no problem selling nearly 1300 Carrera GTs between 2004-2006 at $440,000 ea. No doubt there are more high-wealth individuals worldwide since the ‘90s and pricing in high-end audio this last decade seems to track that.

The positive in all this are what I call the ‘survivor companies’ from the ‘80s-‘90s like ARC, CJ, krell, VPI, thiel, Martin-Logan, Magnepan, etc. that still offer good value. It’s the Johnny come lately mfrs, most of which you never heard of 10-yrs ago that have the absurd pricing.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

And based upon what you're saying, you're pretty secure with gonzo journalism too.

All I'm saying is that you better have your ducks in a row before shooting from the hip.

Nice, Myles. I've offered straightforward questions and real experiences and this is your contribution.

It really is not as complicated and mysterious as you want it to be. As Doug said in a phone call a few minutes ago: "If you took a candybar up to the register and the cashier said 'that will be $35,' wouldn't you ask why?"

I guess you would assume "hidden costs" in the caramel and keep quiet while forking over the money. That would be the responsible thing to do, after all.

 

[Andre Marc]

Well Doug I've been doing it for a decade longer than you and it ain't so foreign to me. And I've been to more than a few companies, dealers and record labels too in my day. So we don't need to get into one upsmanship and namedropping.

What seem foreign to you is the conept of getting all your facts together when doing investigative reporting. I think that all the areas that I asked for are quite reasonable when judging the cost of a product.

Not only that--but readers of SSN and WBF--need to know what goes into the cost of a product. I don't think everyone is on the same page as far as how equipment is priced. There are a lot of hidden costs that people don't see (like the cost of lending out a 100K in equipment to reviewers as one manufacturer once found out).

I agree with you that the facts need to be squared away before publishing a potentially destructive article. You are spot on about that.

On the other hand, there is nothing to stop a writer from offering an opinion, as long as are making it CLEAR it is speculation.

As far as pricing..let's not beat around the bush..it is dealer margin that is hugely responsible for the insanity.

I wonder how it make those people who bought Nordost Odin if they knew that 85% of the cost of those $35,000 cables go to the dealer.

 

[JackD201]

85%? Seriously?

 

[Andre Marc]

85%? Seriously?

YUP. That, my friend, is a FACT.

Transparent does 70% and so on and so forth.

 

[Steve williams]

YUP. That, my friend, is a FACT.

Transparent does 70% and so on and so forth.

The dealer or the manufacturer Andre???

So you imply that only 30% of the price goes to Transparent

She must sell a lot of cable as Karen Sumner is the one driving the rolls Royce and not her dealers

I guess she gets 30% of all sales whereas the dealer only gets 70% of that one sale

 

[Andre Marc]

The dealer or the manufacturer Andre???

So you imply that only 30% of the price goes to Transparent

She must sell a lot of cable as Karen Sumner is the one driving the rolls Royce and not her dealers

I guess she gets 30% of all sales whereas the dealer only gets 70% of that one sale

Yes, Steve, that is what I am saying. I have had several dealers show me invoices. Plus I know people who
used to work with Transparent.

What is the catch? They demand exclusives. So the dealer cannot sell any other cable line.

Transparent is also an OEM. They supply internal wiring, as Audience does, industry wide.