Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[NorthStar]

Bob,

Looking at your post it seems that you have been talking mostly with unlucky and I think unhappy dealers.

---- Micro, 1. I said "a few of my". 2. What makes you say that they were "unlucky" and "unhappy"? ...Because they made and still make a very good living at it, plus they have a great sense of humor, and they are dead honest with me, or they wouldn't be part of my gang of audio dealers.

* "All", "vast majority"; yes, some' wrong with that Micro?

I was having dinner today with our larger high-end dealer/distributor in the country and we have debated the topic. Although he had one or two orders like that, they were exceptional. Most of the sales of expensive systems were to people who wanted the best, but were exigent customers looking for excellent sound quality. They did not put the goods in the truck - they installed them in the client houses and had to go through several tuning sections until the client was pleased. As they have a long tradition of good service and quality brands and clients trust them sometimes people do not ask for demos - they just tell them a few guidelines and accept their choice.

---- Good. ...Some rich people buy audio only on recommendations from their entourage (soi-disant expert audio friends).
And that is as fact.

...Even non-rich people.

 

[Bill Hart]

a coincidence or maybe JA reads WBF.

And, almost 20 years later, what's that 100k system worth? Contrast that with the value of the McLaren mentioned in the article. Puro, what's the multiple of list today for an 18 year old car?

 

[NorthStar]

a coincidence or maybe JA reads WBF.

---- John is an actual member here. ...But I'm certain that you knew that already.

 

[microstrip]

---- Micro, 1. I said "a few of my". 2. What makes you say that they were "unlucky" and "unhappy"? ....

IMHO, being a high-end dealer is much more than selling the most expensive stuff and putting it in van for delivery. I was impressed by the generic negative view of the customers you describe that - as you say - just need the most expensive ones of course.

 

[NorthStar]

-- Micro, what are you talkin' 'bout?!?

 

[puroagave]

And, almost 20 years later, what's that 100k system worth? Contrast that with the value of the McLaren mentioned in the article. Puro, what's the multiple of list today for an 18 year old car?

depends who's case you're making... a UK dealer sold an F1 last Nov for $5.5 mil USD. the average value today for a road car is probably 3-5 mil. Whats that same $100k audio system from '94 worth today? its kinda like betting on penny stocks.

 

[microstrip]

-- Micro, what are you talkin' 'bout?!?

The profile of consumers of very expensive equipment you are generally referring and, in an implicit way, of the dealers.

 

[KBK]

depends who's case you're making... a UK dealer sold an F1 last Nov for $5.5 mil USD. the average value today for a road car is probably 3-5 mil. Whats that same $100k audio system from '94 worth today? its kinda like betting on penny stocks.

pre-failed (just for you!) penny stocks, at that.

 

[KBK]

I don't have any objections to audio jewelry. I bought my tone arm, expensive, just because I loved the way it looked and I wanted to look at it whenever I played a record.

The newly minted raft of Asian millionaires are obviously chasing expensive dreams that make the affluent American audiophiles pale in comparison.

Some of the Accuphase products I have opened up are absolutely gorgeous, they seem to be an impossible implementation of precision audio construction. They also sound good, I can see how having them on the rack would inspire confidence in one's audio choices, and with the art of both design and construction, the prices seem justifiable.

Some of the ugliest equipment I've ever seen, has at times, been the best. regardless of price.

Pretty circuitry design and layout can sometimes degrade audio quality. Sad but true. It does happen.

the key is 'seem justifiable'.

People want us to 'pretty up' our cables.

The problem is that all the prettying literally destroys all the hard work of making a fantastic sounding audio cable.

electromagnetic function indicates that all aspects of signal handling of field and mechanical integration are fundamental to the micro characteristics of the signal, which IS the sound of the cable.

Motors are designs the way they are with stators, coils, magnets, shafts, and so on..in a particular way/arrangement, as that is what makes them work best. if not done that way, they simply do not function, at all.

Audio cables are not to follow electrical parameters for engineering 'low noise', no, not at all. The now traditional designs arefor engineering measurement and similar, not for audio purposes.

That engineers conflate the two situations...is their problem, not mine, nor is it the problem of any other audio cable designer.

And that it can be explained as to why, but that just arms the competition with one's hard earned knowledge. Thus the audio cable designer has to sit there and be pelted with tomatoes by the ignorance of some folks. They have no choice.

They can commit to the reveal, and try to shut these jokers down... but the cost is their hard won knowledge tossed into the public domain. At the same time the answer is still going to be rejected, and the tomatoes would continue to fly.

This is my hard won knowledge of how such things go, after conquering three different fields (so far). That the ignorance in some people, does not end.

 

[KBK]

Nope, I'm not Thorsten.

I do find myself recommending some of his kit though.

Ok..I heard that he was around here somewhere....

Back to the subject at hand. That the capacitance is impossibly low.


Exactly those words.

 

[Orb]

I don't have any objections to audio jewelry. I bought my tone arm, expensive, just because I loved the way it looked and I wanted to look at it whenever I played a record.

The newly minted raft of Asian millionaires are obviously chasing expensive dreams that make the affluent American audiophiles pale in comparison.
....

Yes very Gangnam Style
Sorry that song and video has somehow been burnt into my brain and soul, but hey touches on that very subject.
Cheers
Orb

 

[KeithR]

Who the hell cares what the equipment cost? If you can afford the gear, God bless you! It's also interesting that few if any, as usual, have even heard the gear they're criticizing, yet have an opinion.

Myles- not trying to incense you, but I do think folks and reviewers including yourself ought to challenge value at these upper echelons such as 35k tonearms. Ask the tough questions! Art Dudley lamented similar things at his last show review--as every component he saw was like 25k+. Jeff Fritz has openly challenged manufacturers as well (speaker cabinet material). Since reviewers are so uniquely powerful in this industry, I think it makes sense.

The other thing reviewers need to do is compare products---if I see another review on a 30k item without a comparison to other things, it's worthless and I feel is basically an advertisement. I'll call one out--Alan Sircom just reviewed Magico S5s without a single comparison to another speaker. Most of the TAS cover stories are similar.

The issue (FOR ME ONLY) is there isn't that much R&D or materials going into this stuff- price just begets price as manufacturers are trying to sell overseas with pretty cases (copper heat sinks which while expensive, don't add anything to the sound of Dan's monos). And the reason I can't hear it is I can't demo it! Please give me a list of dealers who have the 35k tonearm in stock that I can take home overnight. 99.9% of dealers aren't stocking a 200k speaker or 50k phono stage either.

The issue for MY FRIENDS (age 35, so the demo that all manufacturers want) is that they see the prices of this stuff at the high end and laugh. Why bother getting a 10k system, when SOTA is a 50k preamp. It discourages sales imo. This happened to me when I took a guy with basic Revels and a receiver to a stereo store in San Diego. He asked how much the stack in front of him was and 100k was the answer. At that point his tune changed.

When I started out in this hobby in 1999, there wasn't near the amount of unobtanium in this business. The model has changed and manufacturers have actively done this. And I successfully wrote this post without talking about the cable business

 

[MarinJim]

Caveat emptor it seems, is now more important than ever.

 

[JackD201]

I'm not much older than you Keith and I didn't start much earlier either. There was a lot of unobtainium then we just hadn't heard about them. Information is just so much easier to come by these days.

I agree that it can be as off putting just as seeing jeans sold for 400 bucks can be off putting. There's no shortage of publications that feature accessible gear as there is no shortage in manufacturers of affordable gear. There is a shortage of places to hear or borrow from ALL of the above. Would you believe that there is no official distributor of Oppo here? Denon and Marantz change distributors almost yearly, same with Yamaha because of the quota policies of these companies. Onkyo is more lenient and has thus stayed with the same distributor for over a decade.

There is a tangle of interests in the retail level because retailers are often also distributors. While we sell products for other distributors and other distributors sell ours we don't sell everything. We just plug each other's gaps. We also refer people to each other with no commissions. There's a reason good will can go on your books. It has value.

What people don't realize is how much it costs to stock inventory and the costs that are sunk when this doesn't sell. Take products that have been discontinued and/or replaced. You will lose money on these. Then there are warranty claims. Distributors share in the costs. You can't have it all. If you want service you have to pay for it. The guys that buy the expensive stuff help keep the doors open and the service good for the guys who buy the affordable stuff in our case and I presume many others. So instead of calling them names and laughing about their choices just appreciate that these guys help you get that home demo albeit indirectly. That or go buy online and hope for the best when it comes to after sales service.

 

[Bill Hart]

Caveat emptor it seems, is now more important than ever.

Well, isn't that really the value of a forum like this? We can talk to people that own the gear, get input on synergies, weaknesses or the like; I know there is a tendancy for people to praise what they own over all else (or they probably wouldn't own it), but I've found a number of fair minded people here who have had access to a range of gear and aren't limited to praising what they own. So, it is one more resource, and a good one. Perhaps just another blithering insight into the obvious on my part.....

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles- not trying to incense you, but I do think folks and reviewers including yourself ought to challenge value at these upper echelons such as 35k tonearms. Ask the tough questions! Art Dudley lamented similar things at his last show review--as every component he saw was like 25k+. Jeff Fritz has openly challenged manufacturers as well (speaker cabinet material). Since reviewers are so uniquely powerful in this industry, I think it makes sense.

The other thing reviewers need to do is compare products---if I see another review on a 30k item without a comparison to other things, it's worthless and I feel is basically an advertisement. I'll call one out--Alan Sircom just reviewed Magico S5s without a single comparison to another speaker. Most of the TAS cover stories are similar.

The issue (FOR ME ONLY) is there isn't that much R&D or materials going into this stuff- price just begets price as manufacturers are trying to sell overseas with pretty cases (copper heat sinks which while expensive, don't add anything to the sound of Dan's monos). And the reason I can't hear it is I can't demo it! Please give me a list of dealers who have the 35k tonearm in stock that I can take home overnight. 99.9% of dealers aren't stocking a 200k speaker or 50k phono stage either.

The issue for MY FRIENDS (age 35, so the demo that all manufacturers want) is that they see the prices of this stuff at the high end and laugh. Why bother getting a 10k system, when SOTA is a 50k preamp. It discourages sales imo. This happened to me when I took a guy with basic Revels and a receiver to a stereo store in San Diego. He asked how much the stack in front of him was and 100k was the answer. At that point his tune changed.

When I started out in this hobby in 1999, there wasn't near the amount of unobtanium in this business. The model has changed and manufacturers have actively done this. And I successfully wrote this post without talking about the cable business

No Keith, I think you have a valid comment and observation.

There are always a few components whose price (s) are hard to justify; but I believe there are a lot of obvious and hidden costs when you're basically making a one off product (and how much is the manufacturer actually making before handing the product off to a dealer who is taking their points). Audiophiles often don't see the expensive involved--or even having to through away so much to get one product that is flawless. I think Gary has alluded to some of the cost involved in making his speakers too!

I guess I still believe in a free market economy and if a product is a rip off, the company won't be around for too long.

 

[Bill Hart]

Myles- not trying to incense you, but I do think folks and reviewers including yourself ought to challenge value at these upper echelons such as 35k tonearms. Ask the tough questions! Art Dudley lamented similar things at his last show review--as every component he saw was like 25k+. Jeff Fritz has openly challenged manufacturers as well (speaker cabinet material). Since reviewers are so uniquely powerful in this industry, I think it makes sense.

The other thing reviewers need to do is compare products---if I see another review on a 30k item without a comparison to other things, it's worthless and I feel is basically an advertisement. I'll call one out--Alan Sircom just reviewed Magico S5s without a single comparison to another speaker. Most of the TAS cover stories are similar.

The issue (FOR ME ONLY) is there isn't that much R&D or materials going into this stuff- price just begets price as manufacturers are trying to sell overseas with pretty cases (copper heat sinks which while expensive, don't add anything to the sound of Dan's monos). And the reason I can't hear it is I can't demo it! Please give me a list of dealers who have the 35k tonearm in stock that I can take home overnight. 99.9% of dealers aren't stocking a 200k speaker or 50k phono stage either.

The issue for MY FRIENDS (age 35, so the demo that all manufacturers want) is that they see the prices of this stuff at the high end and laugh. Why bother getting a 10k system, when SOTA is a 50k preamp. It discourages sales imo. This happened to me when I took a guy with basic Revels and a receiver to a stereo store in San Diego. He asked how much the stack in front of him was and 100k was the answer. At that point his tune changed.

When I started out in this hobby in 1999, there wasn't near the amount of unobtanium in this business. The model has changed and manufacturers have actively done this. And I successfully wrote this post without talking about the cable business

I assume Myles was being a little glib, based on the last part of his statement that alot of the criticism is being leveled by people that haven't heard the gear. I doubt Myles has set aside half a million bucks this year to upgrade his system and probably isn't advocating that for others~ from what I've seen, he reviews a lot of good basic tweaks, among other things.
And, while I don't advocate the crazy pricing at the top tier, I've rarely purchased the 'latest and greatest' even though I have a very good system and am quite happy with how it sounds. I'm not bothered by the prospect that there may be a 'better' preamp out there- and what I've got, if not the absolute 'best' is pretty much SOTA without spending in the stratosphere. There's also that 'being on the cutting edge' means you quickly fall off- I'm in for the long term, and have managed to maintain pretty nice musical systems for a long, long time without going crazy. There are more turntables, tone arms, phono stages and other vinyl related gear on the market right now than at any time than I'm aware of in the history of reproduced music. The fact that there are Gulfstream priced components today doesn't detract from the richness of what's available at lower, more reasonable price points. And for the guy who can afford the Gulfstream- god bless 'em. I think that's what Myles was saying- at least that's how I read it. I didn't think he was advocating crazy pricing for its own sake.

 

[DaveyF]

One thing that perhaps we would do well to remember is that the cost of something is a relative term. To one person a $1000 piece of audio gear is exorbitant, to another a $1M piece is highly affordable. While I do agree that there seem to be more and more companies in the audio business who are trying to cater to the latter example; I believe that we do have plenty of folks who are catering to the former example. IMHO, it would be a GIANT shame IF those that were catered to only fell into one example or the other. Here's hoping that does NOT happen. My 2 cents..

 

[NorthStar]

Well, isn't that really the value of a forum like this? We can talk to people that own the gear, get input on synergies, weaknesses or the like; I know there is a tendancy for people to praise what they own over all else (or they probably wouldn't own it), but I've found a number of fair minded people here who have had access to a range of gear and aren't limited to praising what they own. So, it is one more resource, and a good one. Perhaps just another blithering insight into the obvious on my part.....

---- Agreed.

 

[Mosin]

I will more than likely oversimplify the issue, but the way I see it is that times are really hard on those in the middle, and the middle has always been the real bread and butter for most manufacturers. When I say manufacturers, I mean those with buildings, equipment, employees and quite often, payments at the bank.

Let's use turntables as an example. Right now, the low end of the market is selling very well. By low-end, I mean turntables like Crosley, the Audio-Technica, etc. USB ones, and to some degree the Project and Rega crowd. Also, the traditional high-end is doing just fine. By those. I mean the cottage industry ones that sell for 10K and up along with the flagships of larger traditional companies.

The middle, however, is tripping all over itself because the brick and mortar stores are becoming relics of the past, and those in the middle are trying to sell "me too" items a lot of the time. Many of their buyers are upside down in their mortgages, have lost their jobs, and have downsized everything. If you make a turntable that sells for 4-5K, forget about it. So, where would you go? If you try to compete with Crosley and Audio-Technica, not only are you out a small fortune trying to totally redefine who you are, but you will lose in the end because you cannot cover that market logistically. It's where the money is really, but the guys in the middle aren't financed well enough to compete there, and their heart isn't in it, anyway. Their only hope is to go after that unknown quantity, and that quantity is whatever the cottage industry has. None of them are sure what the audio underground is all about, let alone the amount of money there, so they have their fingers crossed that it is enough to satisfy their needs, and hope springs eternal for them that they will penetrate that area occupied by the Eastern European and Far Eastern crazies who know no spending limits. Besides, they have the tooling, the buildings and the employees, right? They all think they can capture the high-end market just because they are set up to do production, and they will copy each other, the cottage industry and traditional guys, and add in some bling and hype to make it sell. We are already seeing it, and some of them will succeed at the game. Most will lose, however, because they were faking it when they were in the middle, and that won't work for very long anymore.

The cottage industry guys and the SMEs of this world will survive because this is our playground, and we don't have the financial obligations of many of the "new to high-end" companies. It's my opinion that the next couple of years will be ones of change for a lot of the audio business, and some familiar faces will disappear forever. I believe those faces are the ones who are currently making the big changes in their target markets.

I could be wrong, of course.