Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive

[TBone]

My own prejudice is that the best sound in America is probably in some guy's basement in a backwash of Ohio. He has a soldering station, access the a woodworking and machine shop, and his family thinks he is crazy. He probably listens to tubes. Maybe he and a friend or two ever hear his system.

LOL, nicely stated ... and perhaps he doesn't want to share the sweet spot.

tb1

 

[MylesBAstor]

Who the hell cares what the equipment cost? If you can afford the gear, God bless you! It's also interesting that few if any, as usual, have even heard the gear they're criticizing, yet have an opinion.

This topic has been flogged to death a million times already in numerous threads on WBF and we get it. It's beginning to sound like a broken record recorded by the Moonies. Perhaps AudioAsylum.com would be a better forum.

 

[microstrip]

I commented on the tone of the posts I've seen in such threads. How people feel is not determined by your logic about the validity of high prices (or mine). I believe that the "hijacked" idea may be behind some of the rather passionate posts I see.

> The high-end high prices were created by the economics, better knowledge of the audio science ...

I don't see much “audio science” R&D from high-end companies with the exception of Harmon and perhaps one or two others. Not many audiophiles seem interested in the science behind the products either. Here are some assertions about high-end audio that I find plausible:

- Distribution is inefficient (expensive) compared to consumer electronics or pro-audio markets.
- Equipment is produced in too low numbers by companies that are too small to afford much investment.
- No innovation in terms of functionality or price/performance. So the market is stagnant or declining.
- The middle of the audio market shriveled during the recession. High-end audio companies moved further up market rather than down market.
- Dealers have been telling manufacturers that higher prices make equipment seem more valuable and salable.
- Some audiophiles have big money to spend on audio gear and they want to spend it. Over and over. They are the core customer base now.

Proof by assertion (yours or mine) is not proof at all.

> They created state of the art very expensive equipment and now internet marketing techniques excessively expose these products,

Gotta keep the conspicuous consumption discreetly hidden from the unwashed masses.:b Hard to pass up such an opportunity for humor.

> hiding that behind them the traditional market of value for money has better offers than ever.

Few of those better values are from the high-end companies that are discussed here. I'll be buying from the companies that offer real advances in function and price/performance.

> Is the creation of a forum called WhatsBestForum a signal that the hobby has been hijacked?

I think the hobby was hijacked some time ago. This forum reflects the way the high-end audio industry has gone and the way its customer base has narrowed.

I am disappointed in this forum. Steve stated his intention to bring in experts to lead discussions about real knowledge. There is very little of that left. What interests me is talking about real knowledge about audio, reasoning from that knowledge, reading about experiments and measurements from them. In a recent post tomelex said

“So, we have no lists, no specifics, we just enjoy audio. What the hell are we going to talk about? What is there to learn.”

I agree.

Bill

Bill,

I appreciate the time you take to answer my post, but unhappily the way you quote me, ignoring forum rules, makes a masquerade from my post and your answer. I will be very pleased to answer to your views if you could edit your post to make it clearly readable by others, allowing me to go on debating it.

BTW, one thing you do not seem to realize is that most companies do not carry audio research, but apply audio science developed by others. It is why we have IEEE, AES and many journals on acoustics where companies, research institutes and universities on acoustics that publish and disseminate their findings. As some people like to say, the best engineer is the one who does not need to invent anything!

 

[FrantzM]

Who the hell cares what the equipment cost? <snip>

Myles

I hope you are not serious...

 

[microstrip]

(...) However, I think most audiophiles who have been in the hobby for a while will necessarily develop a PHILOSOPHY of sound. If they haven't, and they just like the gadgets, then they will churn gadgets and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, either. I don't usually think I would follow their path or recommendations, though, it strikes me as a case of nerves more than hobby. I listen more often when guys espouse their developed philosophies, rather than equipment lusting. (...)

Cjfrbw,

Good point. This philosophy of sound is created along many years, from listening experiences, but also mostly from what we read. My first influential readings came from the French magazine L'Audiophile, that had a strong presence of the Japanese school in the writings of Jean Hiraga. Later I begin reading HiFi News and Record Review, at that time dominated by the BBC school of thought. This magazine evolved in the middle 80's into the subjective version of the current magazine, with a strong influence from people such as Paul Massenger and Martin Colloms. It seems I have lost the best years of Stereophile, but Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound contributed since issue one to my philosophy of sound. And at last, thanks to WBF and its contributors, I found the psychoacoustics of audio in F. Toole great book, Sound Reproduction. I have no doubts that all these readings contributed a lot to develop the way I listen to reproduced music.

Maybe we should move this interesting subject to another thread.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles

I hope you are not serious...

Yes I am. AFAIK, there's no audio police? We're all adults and can make our own choices.

And it's getting extremely tiresome to hear the same chortle from the peanut gallery everytime the topic of expensive gear is raised. We got it the first time.

You know that people who own top notch equipment have as much feelings as those who own lesser priced gear.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes I am. AFAIK, there's no audio police? We're all adults and can make our own choices.

And it's getting extremely tiresome to hear the same chortle from the peanut gallery everytime the topic of expensive gear is raised. We got it the first time.

You know that people who own top notch equipment have as much feelings as those who own lesser priced gear.

+1

i'm waiting for "i did actually compare the gear i said was expensive to the gear i use directly and .........".

i care what you think about how something sounds. i can watch MSNBC or Fox News to learn how i should live my life. and i never do that either since it's damn depressing.

the OP did speak to the actual specific listening experience with specific gear which i appreciated.

 

[cjfrbw]

Yeah, you guys in the peanut gallery, you are unfeeling monsters!

Leave the sensitive rich guys alone!

Now, who were the members in that peanut gallery, again?

 

[microstrip]

(...)

You know that people who own top notch equipment have as much feelings as those who own lesser priced gear.

And what about Shrek feelings?

 

[JackD201]

Every time I read "I've seen so many megabuck systems sound like crap" I laugh. It's really, really easy to make anything sound like crap. The bigger the system the easier it gets. The real question should be what kind of sound could YOU get out of that system. Just because someone else might have screwed up the use of the system doesn't mean the components in that system are bad. It just means it was screwed up and likely only in your opinion.

 

[MarinJim]

Who the hell cares what the equipment cost? If you can afford the gear, God bless you! It's also interesting that few if any, as usual, have even heard the gear they're criticizing, yet have an opinion.

This topic has been flogged to death a million times already in numerous threads on WBF and we get it. It's beginning to sound like a broken record recorded by the Moonies. Perhaps AudioAsylum.com would be a better forum.

Myles I respect that you are actually making a living in this industry, but IMHO, you are missing the point. IT IS ABOUT THE COST vs. reward. As an example, I supercharged my BMW 540i to 700 hp with a fully built forged 5.0L engine. But , when I pass a Porsche or Ferrari, they think,"Oh, that's just a BMW". In other words, I don't spend an insane amount of money on my stereo system just to think the more I spend, the better the system.

 

[Bruce B]

It's really, really easy to make anything sound like crap. The bigger the system the easier it gets. .

You've certainly got that right. Seems lately the bigger the system is, the worse it sounds!!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Myles I respect that you are actually making a living in this industry, but IMHO, you are missing the point. IT IS ABOUT THE COST vs. reward. As an example, I supercharged my BMW 540i to 700 hp with a fully built forged 5.0L engine. But , when I pass a Porsche or Ferrari, they think,"Oh, that's just a BMW". In other words, I don't spend an insane amount of money on my stereo system just to think the more I spend, the better the system.

i think we all agree with cost verses reward, for whatever we might do. however; we don't all weigh the same things equally as to what the rewards are worth or even percieve what is or is not a reward, or have the same context to fully take advantage of the reward. so the contexts are rarely equal for different people. so judging other's decisions is difficult. especially without ever experiencing the same product personally.

your automotive analogy is good as it focuses on performance verses style and cashe'. it's a good example of choosing the particular rewards you value over one's another might choose.

 

[NorthStar]

I don't have any objections to audio jewelry. I bought my tone arm, expensive, just because I loved the way it looked and I wanted to look at it whenever I played a record.

The newly minted raft of Asian millionaires are obviously chasing expensive dreams that make the affluent American audiophiles pale in comparison.

Some of the Accuphase products I have opened up are absolutely gorgeous, they seem to be an impossible implementation of precision audio construction. They also sound good, I can see how having them on the rack would inspire confidence in one's audio choices, and with the art of both design and construction, the prices seem justifiable.

However, I think most audiophiles who have been in the hobby for a while will necessarily develop a PHILOSOPHY of sound. If they haven't, and they just like the gadgets, then they will churn gadgets and there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, either. I don't usually think I would follow their path or recommendations, though, it strikes me as a case of nerves more than hobby. I listen more often when guys espouse their developed philosophies, rather than equipment lusting.

I also see the expensive setups that look like Intel clean rooms with massive, expensive monoliths of audio architecture. I also don't see anything wrong with that, if you can afford it and it gives you musical peace and fulfillment, or even just a sense of status and prestige. It's hard for me to imagine a lot of actual listening getting done when the tweako stuff and dust mops become so time consuming, though. It looks like high maintenance and low listening time. Listening becomes like an occasional tea ceremony, with some prized recording eventually consumed on the audio alter, rather than an integrated part of life. Music designed for dirty, crowded, smokey rooms played in Intel clean rooms is a bit too contrarian for me.

My own prejudice is that the best sound in America is probably in some guy's basement in a backwash of Ohio. He has a soldering station, access the a woodworking and machine shop, and his family thinks he is crazy. He probably listens to tubes. Maybe he and a friend or two ever hear his system.

---- I've been reading this entire thread and been waiting on the sideline.

I like your post best (all of it), I think. :b

* Yes, rich or poor we all have feelings; we're all humans with a heart, a body, a mind, and a soul.
...And a sound system too, or two. :b ...Some have none, but that's from another country or two. ...Or at least they play their own tunes from their own instruments, live.

______________

And this I know that much: I could have a lesser system (audio rig), and I could have a better one.
Some of us have one or the other or similarly equal, depending of our directions (passion + finances).

So many variables, but the song remains the same.

 

[JackD201]

You've certainly got that right. Seems lately the bigger the system is, the worse it sounds!!

There's nowhere to hide. Just have to admit something isn't right and find it. The rewards are worth it IMO though. I borrowed some cabling and a few components for the last show we did. When everything was back in, the sound was definitely screwed up. Figured the system needed to settle in again. Nope. As it turned out, the sculpture at the front center of the room was moved forward to access the IC runs. Pushed it back to where it was before and all was well again. Sigh.

 

[MarinJim]

I will date myself, but in 1973 in high school, all my friends bought Corvettes and Barracudas. I went every week-end to Pacific Stereo to pester this poor salesman and find out about the best value in stereos and that time. I bought a Phase Linear amp, Gerrard table and ESS speakers and SAE preamp and digital tuner. I did not buy the most expensive gear I could afford, I bought what I thought at the time sounded best to me.

 

[puroagave]

I will date myself, but in 1973 in high school, all my friends bought Corvettes and Barracudas.

now we're talking, if i had to choose a car for my midlife crisis it would be a '71 'cuda 440 six pack in sublime green :b

 

[microstrip]

There's nowhere to hide. Just have to admit something isn't right and find it. The rewards are worth it IMO though. I borrowed some cabling and a few components for the last show we did. When everything was back in, the sound was definitely screwed up. Figured the system needed to settle in again. Nope. As it turned out, the sculpture at the front center of the room was moved forward to access the IC runs. Pushed it back to where it was before and all was well again. Sigh.

Jack,

You should not have told it. Now we will have a lot of posts saying that we should sell our expensive amplifiers and CD players, get others costing one tenth and a sculpture to put close to the center front wall ...

More seriously many people can not imagine how important is synergy and setup in order to extract the full potential of high end components. We can easily change equipment for a better product, but unless we have the time and ability to optimize the system after this changing we will not appreciate it fully.

 

[Shaffer]

Myles I respect that you are actually making a living in this industry, but IMHO, you are missing the point. IT IS ABOUT THE COST vs. reward. As an example, I supercharged my BMW 540i to 700 hp with a fully built forged 5.0L engine. But , when I pass a Porsche or Ferrari, they think,"Oh, that's just a BMW". In other words, I don't spend an insane amount of money on my stereo system just to think the more I spend, the better the system.

There are three kinds of car guys:

1. The pedestrian carguy - Most common. This guy likes cars, knows what's what on a somewhat tertiary level, and really doesn't concern himself with the detail of the pursuit, nor with the actual act of high-performance driving.

2. The conquest buyer - The folks described above. All of the folks described above. This person knows numbers. Which numbers? The ones that he thinks make him better than the pack, whether it's horsepower that he can't possibly put to the ground, the provenance of a certain marque, or the whatever else may flot his boat. Again, the actual act of driving ain't it.

3. The carguy carguy - Anyone ever seen Chasing Classic Cars? There was an episode centering on a party held during Palm Springs - the high-end of all high-end. The party, however, had a spin to it. One had a small budget to work with and had to use it for an automotive purchase. To make a long story short, the host chose a rust bucket that most folks (see options 1&2) would not notice. This car was the hit of the event, even though the attendees we used to the best there is. Why? Because, they understood the machine's value and that same value didn't exist as a monetary figure or as a prop of wealth. It stood on purely automotive terms.

The same exact idea can be applied to High-End audio.

 

[Bill Hart]

There are three kinds of car guys:

1. The pedestrian carguy - Most common. This guy likes cars, knows what's what on a somewhat tertiary level, and really doesn't concern himself with the detail of the pursuit, nor with the actual act of high-performance driving.

2. The conquest buyer - The folks described above. All of the folks described above. This person knows numbers. Which numbers? The ones that he thinks make him better than the pack, whether it's horsepower that he can't possibly put to the ground, the provenance of a certain marque, or the whatever else may flot his boat. Again, the actual act of driving ain't it.

3. The carguy carguy - Anyone ever seen Chasing Classic Cars? There was an episode centering on a party held during Palm Springs - the high-end of all high-end. The party, however, had a spin to it. One had a small budget to work with and had to use it for an automotive purchase. To make a long story short, the host chose a rust bucket that most folks (see options 1&2) would not notice. This car was the hit of the event, even though the attendees we used to the best there is. Why? Because, they understood the machine's value and that same value didn't exist as a monetary figure or as a prop of wealth. It stood on purely automotive terms.

The same exact idea can be applied to High-End audio.

Felix, I'm a car guy as well as a hi-fi guy, and at least as far as cars are concerned, I'm not sure I fit into the three categories you described. I'm pretty knowledgeable, though I'm not turning wrenches, I've owned and driven all kinds of cars, from pre-war roadsters to the latest supercars and could be happy with a Morgan 3 wheeler. It's not pedestrian, it's not conquest, and it's not rust budget. I think, to a large extent, the same is true of my taste in hi-fi.