I've heard many good things from Dan's customers about his mods. I like his products. He's a very nice guy to boot.
Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive
- Thread starter MarinJim
- Start date
I think too many people in this hobby spend far too much time complaining about pricing. There will always be the exotic pieces with exotic prices that we could never dream to afford. Not unlike many cars and motorcycles I see everyday that I wish I could just run out and purchase.
I will say that there is something to be said about the ultra high end and the components that fall into that category. Not that the inexpensive (more affordable) can't sound great but a Moped can still get you from point A to point B. it does what is has to do but not as well as quickly as a Ducati.
We make preamplifiers ranging from $3,500 to $53,000 but guess what we sell more of?.....Certainly not the $3,500 model. Mid Fi is a very difficult section of the industry and also has the most options. (read-competition). This is one of the reasons many manufacturers, including us, are chattering to the ultra high end.
I will say that there is something to be said about the ultra high end and the components that fall into that category. Not that the inexpensive (more affordable) can't sound great but a Moped can still get you from point A to point B. it does what is has to do but not as well as quickly as a Ducati.
We make preamplifiers ranging from $3,500 to $53,000 but guess what we sell more of?.....Certainly not the $3,500 model. Mid Fi is a very difficult section of the industry and also has the most options. (read-competition). This is one of the reasons many manufacturers, including us, are chattering to the ultra high end.
I think you missed much of the point. The high prices are not a big deal. As you said, every hobby has exotica. It is high prices WITHOUT the obvious performance advantages. Jeff Fritz and his post about a particular
speaker he saw at CES was flashpoint.
Also, when you say you are "chattering to the ultra high end" it really comes off as you are "chattering to the ultra rich".
Does your $53,000 preamp really cost you around $15,000 make? Labor and parts included?
I am asking with with genuine interest.
i check this thread every night to see if i'll miss something good. im hoping for the one-time 80% off cable offer from transparent to scuttle this whole discussion and deep six this thread. or, a group buy exclusive for WBF members only: accommodation pricing on all the playback designs, dartzeel and magico gear you want with free shipping and no paypal fees
one can dream.
one can dream.
i check this thread every night to see if i'll miss something good. im hoping for the one-time 80% off cable offer from transparent to scuttle this whole discussion and deep six this thread. or, a group buy exclusive for WBF members only: accommodation pricing on all the playback designs, dartzeel and magico gear you want with free shipping and no paypal fees
Here you go!
-- Me neither, I don't care about the ultra high prices.
But I care on how they are introduced by the company representatives of them manufacturers.
If someone doesn't care on how a certain product is built, and what it consists of (parts and all; implementations), that's ok; they can spend their money as they wish, and even feel good about it, it's part of the 'system'.
Me though, I'm not part of that 'system', and I wanna know! ...Where my money goes.
...Be it $5,000 or $500,000 or $5,000,000 or $50,000,000
...Five hundred bucks, I don't care, but I know some who do.
I'm with Jack here; this forum is about What's Best; What's a Smart Choice, an educated/selective choice.
...An intelligent/wise and informed decision; in the pursuit of musical happiness (or visual), with the REAL VALUE.
I don't know if some of you remember that website; Ultra High-End Forum, now dissolved, I believe?
...The attitude of some people there was just so out-of-touch with the real world, and all that non-sense 'I'm-so-superior-and-you're-so-inferior' jazz mentality type.
* Steve earlier posted that youtube video of that super nice car. ...Magnificent look (my taste anyway, but love the Bugatti's design more)... Anyhow, those guys dressed in white sheets (ghosts from exotic oil countries & sand), they seem to be eager to sit in it and drive off. ...Perfect matching color too (white/pearl).
If I was one of those 'ghosts' with all that comes with it, I wouldn't even be talking to you right now.
What's best for everyone, equally, is what we like and can afford easily. ...And the rest of the world has nothing to do with it. Value is pleasure, of all our senses, even from the sixth and seventh ones; big smile pride, and feel like a god. :b
______________
This now being said; and because audio is my hobby since I was a very young boy (all my life),
extravagantly high prices in audio gear should reflect in sound! ...Do they? Certainly not, to the true real valuable extent.
We're about the Music, the Sound, and how it is well reproduced; faithfully, with the solid emotional impact that it should convey. ...No need $150,000 TTs for that. ...And all that other hyper expensive gear that comes with it, including $300,000/pair of loudspeakers, $90,000 speaker wires, $20,000 audio purifier/filter/rejuvenator/regulator, and you know the rest of the song (jazz tune). ...Miles Davis?
What's Best is about knowledge for me, and knowledge about everything in life; not just audio.
...But video too, good music big time, good movies, cars too, good people, good attitudes, good wines, good food, good house designs, good all around taste in life.
Money? It's all relative really. Can't really compare with others but yourself; how you made it, and how you redistribute it back into the society. ...And if you made it in full honesty, and you give it back with full benefit (to the ones who 'truly' need it the most), then that's What's Best. ...One part of it anyway.
But I care on how they are introduced by the company representatives of them manufacturers.
If someone doesn't care on how a certain product is built, and what it consists of (parts and all; implementations), that's ok; they can spend their money as they wish, and even feel good about it, it's part of the 'system'.
Me though, I'm not part of that 'system', and I wanna know! ...Where my money goes.
...Be it $5,000 or $500,000 or $5,000,000 or $50,000,000
...Five hundred bucks, I don't care, but I know some who do.
I'm with Jack here; this forum is about What's Best; What's a Smart Choice, an educated/selective choice.
...An intelligent/wise and informed decision; in the pursuit of musical happiness (or visual), with the REAL VALUE.
I don't know if some of you remember that website; Ultra High-End Forum, now dissolved, I believe?
...The attitude of some people there was just so out-of-touch with the real world, and all that non-sense 'I'm-so-superior-and-you're-so-inferior' jazz mentality type.
* Steve earlier posted that youtube video of that super nice car. ...Magnificent look (my taste anyway, but love the Bugatti's design more)... Anyhow, those guys dressed in white sheets (ghosts from exotic oil countries & sand), they seem to be eager to sit in it and drive off.
...Perfect matching color too (white/pearl). If I was one of those 'ghosts' with all that comes with it, I wouldn't even be talking to you right now.
What's best for everyone, equally, is what we like and can afford easily. ...And the rest of the world has nothing to do with it. Value is pleasure, of all our senses, even from the sixth and seventh ones; big smile pride, and feel like a god. :b
______________
This now being said; and because audio is my hobby since I was a very young boy (all my life),
extravagantly high prices in audio gear should reflect in sound! ...Do they? Certainly not, to the true real valuable extent.
We're about the Music, the Sound, and how it is well reproduced; faithfully, with the solid emotional impact that it should convey. ...No need $150,000 TTs for that. ...And all that other hyper expensive gear that comes with it, including $300,000/pair of loudspeakers, $90,000 speaker wires, $20,000 audio purifier/filter/rejuvenator/regulator, and you know the rest of the song (jazz tune).
...Miles Davis? What's Best is about knowledge for me, and knowledge about everything in life; not just audio.
...But video too, good music big time, good movies, cars too, good people, good attitudes, good wines, good food, good house designs, good all around taste in life.
Money? It's all relative really. Can't really compare with others but yourself; how you made it, and how you redistribute it back into the society. ...And if you made it in full honesty, and you give it back with full benefit (to the ones who 'truly' need it the most), then that's What's Best. ...One part of it anyway.
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A very interesting question, Andre. One which I doubt too many manufacturer's of high end will be too eager to answer. Unfortunately, the question of "value" is beginning to rear its head in the discussions of "high priced" gear.
I say unfortunately, because 'value' is such a difficult term to come to grips with.
OTOH, I think it is VERY interesting to see PAD 1's remark that they are selling more of the higher priced gear than the lower priced gear that they make...apparently due to the increase in competition at the lower price point.
However, I do think that a great manufacturer shouldn't be afraid of the increased competition, instead the competition should be afraid of them....again my 2 cents.
Lastly, I would commend Jeff Fritz for 'calling it as he sees it'...to my way of thinking that is good journalism.
A very interesting question, Andre. One which I doubt too many manufacturer's of high end will be too eager to answer. Unfortunately, the question of "value" is beginning to rear its head in the discussions of "high priced" gear.
I say unfortunately, because 'value' is such a difficult term to come to grips with.
OTOH, I think it is VERY interesting to see PAD 1's remark that they are selling more of the higher priced gear than the lower priced gear that they make...apparently due to the increase in competition at the lower price point.
However, I do think that a great manufacturer shouldn't be afraid of the increased competition, instead the competition should be afraid of them....again my 2 cents.
Lastly, I would commend Jeff Fritz for 'calling it as he sees it'...to my way of thinking that is good journalism.
Nothing against, PAD 1, I just found the attitude a bit condescending.
As far as their $3500 preamp...glad they make one..but maybe they are not selling too many of them because no one knows they
make it....it is news to me.
I know they do make really good sounding gear, as I heard some of their pieces at shows.
What you see as unfortunate, I see as fortunate - if value was cut-and-dried the thread would have no content.
Value is most definitely subjective - for me, value means a product has to have a convincing story. I want to know what particular issues the manufacturer/designer has identified in audio which have hitherto been overlooked and how he's solving them in this new offering. Value means I get educated by the designer, I learn about something I maybe haven't considered before which impacts my listening pleasure and I'm presented with an innovative way of addressing it. That's inspirational.
Having said that I haven't recently seen any of my kind of value in the higher priced offerings that I've stumbled across lately. More commonly I get inspired by how some designer has been able to do more with less and hence is able to offer something at a cheaper price.
i check this thread every night to see if i'll miss something good. im hoping for the one-time 80% off cable offer from transparent to scuttle this whole discussion and deep six this thread. or, a group buy exclusive for WBF members only: accommodation pricing on all the playback designs, dartzeel and magico gear you want with free shipping and no paypal fees
I will stick with Venture and Hegel, thank you very much.
But as I mentioned they are an anomaly because they are not a high end company.
I think what needs to be defined what is high end and who are those that are more like imposters/wannabe - just because they are selling a product at over $70k does not make them a high end company.
To me the definition of high end must include at least one of the following; superb engineering knowledge-experience, exceptional build and/or manufacturing process, separate to excellent build but still important engineering development-manufacturer of a component/s in said product, and last there is brand recognition that does have an affect on cost with no getting away from this in any consumer product even outside of audio.
The example you mention does not meet the definition of high end as I have followed news and reviews of their products and about the company since they began due to subscribing to UK audio publications (which they are more prominent in).
Unfortunately there are quite a few anomalies out there (I mentioned 2 myself that were at shows) that do not belong to high end, but that has always been the case even going back before the 90s with boutique brands.
However the narrative at shows and dealers is that of top tier reference-statement products, which others jump on the bandwagon by claiming their product into same category.
What is your view then of KEF who make budget and high end speakers saying they could not make the Concept Blade as a statement model as it would be too expensive and this from the company that sold the KEF Muon for over $150k?
By removing constraints of the top tier reference-flagship requirements and criteria they brought the Blade to market still at around $30k.
One cannot view KEF as a just a boutique high end company as they have great experience for many years competing well in the budget to "mid-fi" speakers along with high end and statement-flagship.
Cheers
Orb
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Orb
The way a company becomes High End in my view is when it start with a product and the product is well received. A company isn't born "High End". Companies as diverse as Krell, Avalon, ML, Soulution, Dar Tzeeel, Evolution Acoustics, Magico and Wilson and ... started with a product that also claimed to be a game changer and did ...The list is long, those are now "established" High End companies whatever that truly means. They usually start with a flagship product and the product then "fathers" a line of similar products. In that sense all these aforementioned companies were wannabe when we began to talk about High End Audio in the ealry 80's .. Many of those companies started as late as 2000 Is Soulution 10 years old?.
OTOH Kef and B&W are a different type of companies. They were High Fidelity before High End Audio came to be as a concept. I would put Kef with the AR, Bozark and other speaker brand of the '60s. They have the wherewithal to produce products of the highest quality and performance like Dynaudio, B&W, JM Lab... Cabasse etc but by the time the concept of High End Audio was gaining traction these were already well established companies selling through all market segments.
That doesn't disprove the central argument of this thread to me: that we, audiophiles tend to equate Price with Performance. and that has created a market of constantly increasing prices often for the same products.
The way a company becomes High End in my view is when it start with a product and the product is well received. A company isn't born "High End". Companies as diverse as Krell, Avalon, ML, Soulution, Dar Tzeeel, Evolution Acoustics, Magico and Wilson and ... started with a product that also claimed to be a game changer and did ...The list is long, those are now "established" High End companies whatever that truly means. They usually start with a flagship product and the product then "fathers" a line of similar products. In that sense all these aforementioned companies were wannabe when we began to talk about High End Audio in the ealry 80's .. Many of those companies started as late as 2000 Is Soulution 10 years old?.
OTOH Kef and B&W are a different type of companies. They were High Fidelity before High End Audio came to be as a concept. I would put Kef with the AR, Bozark and other speaker brand of the '60s. They have the wherewithal to produce products of the highest quality and performance like Dynaudio, B&W, JM Lab... Cabasse etc but by the time the concept of High End Audio was gaining traction these were already well established companies selling through all market segments.
That doesn't disprove the central argument of this thread to me: that we, audiophiles tend to equate Price with Performance. and that has created a market of constantly increasing prices often for the same products.
Kind of like a hot girl with lousy teeth. Can't get over that smile.
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Ah interesting this is where I think we will see a split on high end perception.
Because Devialet 1st product in many peoples eyes is high end, was adopted by some of the best high end distributors, reviews present it as high end, bought by those used to high end products and manufacturers,etc.
Same can be said about Crystal Cable both cables and speakers, or Magico (using these as they were part of my previous posts).
How can a company be high end if it lacks some of those factors I mentioned before?
It then becomes about brand name and price but ignores build quality-engineering both in development and implementation.
Coming from a view ignoring technical and engineering factors for defining a high end company/product I can see why some do complain about the high end as there is no differentiation between a valid (IMO) company-product and those who are pretenders.
It is possible to work ones way up to high end as a manufacturer, but then again the product must have some excellent criterias to be deemed high end, same applies to achieve company brand recognition as high end, because price alone does not cut it IMO.
So I can see why there is a split due to that perception.
Cheers
Orb
Because Devialet 1st product in many peoples eyes is high end, was adopted by some of the best high end distributors, reviews present it as high end, bought by those used to high end products and manufacturers,etc.
Same can be said about Crystal Cable both cables and speakers, or Magico (using these as they were part of my previous posts).
How can a company be high end if it lacks some of those factors I mentioned before?
It then becomes about brand name and price but ignores build quality-engineering both in development and implementation.
Coming from a view ignoring technical and engineering factors for defining a high end company/product I can see why some do complain about the high end as there is no differentiation between a valid (IMO) company-product and those who are pretenders.
It is possible to work ones way up to high end as a manufacturer, but then again the product must have some excellent criterias to be deemed high end, same applies to achieve company brand recognition as high end, because price alone does not cut it IMO.
So I can see why there is a split due to that perception.
Cheers
Orb
First, please accept my apologies for how my comment came across. I in no way wanted to come across as condescending. That is not what we are about. We did not set out to cater to any one level of clientele. Maybe a better way to have put it would have been; "We cater to all levels but it is the upper end that is doing better for us at this point in time".
I would also have thought the $3,500 model would have been a bigger seller but maybe you are correct in that it is simply a matter of more exposure. It is this model that I personally use and enjoy on a daily basis.
As far as the cost of our components, yes, they are very expensive to manufacture if you look through what goes into them. As far as how they perform and if they are "worth" the investment, I can only go by what our customers' feedback tells us. I rely on their words much more heavily than reviews as the end user is the only one we strive to make happy.
Like any other business, there is a markup and profit margin that has to be maintained (Certainly not at the level of cable manufacturers) Especially when working through a dealer base but I can say with all honesty, it is actually below industry standards as compared to what some other manufacturers are doing. Like any other company, we too have overhead.
Again, my apologies for how my comments came across. I can assure you it was simply a bad choice of wording. Anyone on this forum who knows me knows that is not my nature.
Hi Bill:
Understood. Really no need to apologize, and I absolutely appreciate your clarification.
Let me make it clear that my self, and no one here, would ever have an issue with a company making a decent profit margin, and the
fact that gear like yours IS in fact expensive to manufacture. I have been to many high end audio factories and they are a breed apart.
Trust me there is no socialist conspiracy here in trying to get all hifi gear to be priced within a narrow range regardless of quality.
I guess we all just got hot seeing CES reports with little aluminum boxes that seem to have been "priced to market".
It does surprise me that you are selling more of your top shelf unit. But maybe that just reflects the current make up
of society? Maybe it is true that the so called "1%" really are the only ones that will keep the high end industry going for now?
Obviously, hard questions to answer.
Again, appreciate your follow up comments.
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