Is it "whats best forum" , or what's more expensive
- Thread starter MarinJim
- Start date
Interesting twist! I like the question ... then again you are in business ito make profits if the customer is willing to pay ..Why not?
You also have do define better because that can be materials or components, build quality, engineering development,where built,etc and not just subjective sound quality.
You can have a speaker model with marginal improvements for say bass or near identical but designed for a larger room and yet could cost a lot more to manufacturer (depends upon manufacturing line-process and materials rather than say development).
I would say it is quite possible to have a product with superior build quality and materials made in US or Europe cost more but may subjectively only be equal to a cheaper built product.
Not always about performance but also build quality and engineering-design, and for some where built that can have a fair effect on overheads.
Not defending all of the high end but the variables to judge a component or manufacturer are many.
Cheers
Orb
Thank you Andre for your comments. By the way, don't you have some 15 watt ASL mono blocs? Or am I thinking of someone else.
This is another point a lot of manufacturers need to get across. Being in the US, we like to keep our products built here and as much as possible, work with local facilities. For example, our upper end aluminum chassis are done by a company less than a half mile down the road from our facility. It makes things so much easier when you can hope in the car and drive less than two minutes to check up on progress not to mention, if there are any issues, you are not waiting weeks for shipping back and forth or traveling to resolve them.
Our anodizers and powder coating company is right in Binghamton which is about a 15 minute drive and our laser engraver is about 1-1/2 mile down the road. Working with local companies whenever possible is not only easier on us but its also nice to give local companies the business.
This is another point a lot of manufacturers need to get across. Being in the US, we like to keep our products built here and as much as possible, work with local facilities. For example, our upper end aluminum chassis are done by a company less than a half mile down the road from our facility. It makes things so much easier when you can hope in the car and drive less than two minutes to check up on progress not to mention, if there are any issues, you are not waiting weeks for shipping back and forth or traveling to resolve them.
Our anodizers and powder coating company is right in Binghamton which is about a 15 minute drive and our laser engraver is about 1-1/2 mile down the road. Working with local companies whenever possible is not only easier on us but its also nice to give local companies the business.
Hi Bill:
No my references are an Audio Research VS55, and a McIntosh MA6600 200 watt integrated, along with a new Bob Carver 20 watt Black Magic.
I applaud the decision by any manufacturer to source locally if at all possible.
My entire reference system save for a Marantz SACD player, made in Japan, is built in North America.
I am not snobby about it at all..but given a choice of products made domestically or contracted to a third party country,
I will choose domestic for a variety of reasons.
Increasingly, I find myself agreeing with Ken Kessler on this. Albeit with some modification.
I think there are two separate, and conflicting, 'shapes' to audio. The first is the traditional high-end, which is all enthusiast-on-enthusiast action. Enthusiast manufacturers make products for enthusiasts, who read about these products on enthusiast websites and in enthusiast magazines, both of which are written by enthusiasts, again with enthusiasts in mind. These enthusiast led products can sometimes end up extraordinarily expensive, because they are often the ultimate expression of the designer's passion - the Vertere arm is a perfect example of this. Whether or not there's a market for a $35,000 tonearm remains to be seen, but the arm's development is patently a function of Touraj's enthusiasm for the subject rather than a cynical exercise in ripping off vinyl lovers.
The other side is the luxury goods market. Products that sell because they appeal to an aspirational set of buyers. Now, it's fairly likely that even the most garish piece of luxury will likely be based on excellent performance, but it maybe that in the price-vs-performance ratio, these products will have other considerations alongside raw sound quality. Sonus faber has always toed a careful line between external appeal and internal performance, and you could argue products like the Amati Futura appeal to that luxury market more than to someone wanting 'just the facts'.
The problem emerges because the worldwide market has shifted away from the enthusiasts and more to the luxury goods buyers, in part because the enthusiasts aren't buying in great numbers any more. Products aimed at a luxury buyer need to be both aspirational and 'spendy' to achieve success. And in the luxury market, the drive is always upward - if you make a good speaker, make a bigger one. Then make it in solid unobtanium. Because if you don't, your distributors and resellers in these regions will just look elsewhere. You lose. This ultimately drives the market, and no amount of hand-wringing by enthusiasts or the enthusiast media or even the enthusiast manufacturers will change that. It's the reason why Boulder makes a 3000 series, despite it being almost impossible to use in its home market; those who drive high-end audio today insisted on an amplifier line that made Boulder bolder (!) and the end result only runs on 240V.
The curious thing about this is just the presence of that crazy money range topper helps build a veneer of legitimacy in products down the line in such markets. I'm reasonably sure Neodio won't sell hundreds of Origine CD players, but that it now has a $38,000 digital player on its books puts it on the map for those who aspire to the top end digital players, and the NR22 will start appearing in markets it would have never even registered in a year ago. As the NR22 is one of the best digital players I've ever heard, and is very much in the 'it sounds like analog' without 'it's made to sound like analog', that's a good thing all round. That our world has become so topsy-turvy that you need to have a super-high-end player to make a mark in the 'normal' high-end is duly noted.
Ultimately, our ire at seeing $200,000 loudspeakers is as nothing if there's a market for $200,000 loudspeakers, especially if the market for $2,000 and $20,000 loudspeakers we enthusiasts buy are still in the doldrums. But if those markets that buy $200,000 speakers announce 'enough is enough!' at $250,000 or $350,000, we'll finally know the limits of the luxury market. We don't get to dictate the limits of that world - they do. We just hope that enough scraps fall from their table to keep us happy.
I think there are two separate, and conflicting, 'shapes' to audio. The first is the traditional high-end, which is all enthusiast-on-enthusiast action. Enthusiast manufacturers make products for enthusiasts, who read about these products on enthusiast websites and in enthusiast magazines, both of which are written by enthusiasts, again with enthusiasts in mind. These enthusiast led products can sometimes end up extraordinarily expensive, because they are often the ultimate expression of the designer's passion - the Vertere arm is a perfect example of this. Whether or not there's a market for a $35,000 tonearm remains to be seen, but the arm's development is patently a function of Touraj's enthusiasm for the subject rather than a cynical exercise in ripping off vinyl lovers.
The other side is the luxury goods market. Products that sell because they appeal to an aspirational set of buyers. Now, it's fairly likely that even the most garish piece of luxury will likely be based on excellent performance, but it maybe that in the price-vs-performance ratio, these products will have other considerations alongside raw sound quality. Sonus faber has always toed a careful line between external appeal and internal performance, and you could argue products like the Amati Futura appeal to that luxury market more than to someone wanting 'just the facts'.
The problem emerges because the worldwide market has shifted away from the enthusiasts and more to the luxury goods buyers, in part because the enthusiasts aren't buying in great numbers any more. Products aimed at a luxury buyer need to be both aspirational and 'spendy' to achieve success. And in the luxury market, the drive is always upward - if you make a good speaker, make a bigger one. Then make it in solid unobtanium. Because if you don't, your distributors and resellers in these regions will just look elsewhere. You lose. This ultimately drives the market, and no amount of hand-wringing by enthusiasts or the enthusiast media or even the enthusiast manufacturers will change that. It's the reason why Boulder makes a 3000 series, despite it being almost impossible to use in its home market; those who drive high-end audio today insisted on an amplifier line that made Boulder bolder (!) and the end result only runs on 240V.
The curious thing about this is just the presence of that crazy money range topper helps build a veneer of legitimacy in products down the line in such markets. I'm reasonably sure Neodio won't sell hundreds of Origine CD players, but that it now has a $38,000 digital player on its books puts it on the map for those who aspire to the top end digital players, and the NR22 will start appearing in markets it would have never even registered in a year ago. As the NR22 is one of the best digital players I've ever heard, and is very much in the 'it sounds like analog' without 'it's made to sound like analog', that's a good thing all round. That our world has become so topsy-turvy that you need to have a super-high-end player to make a mark in the 'normal' high-end is duly noted.
Ultimately, our ire at seeing $200,000 loudspeakers is as nothing if there's a market for $200,000 loudspeakers, especially if the market for $2,000 and $20,000 loudspeakers we enthusiasts buy are still in the doldrums. But if those markets that buy $200,000 speakers announce 'enough is enough!' at $250,000 or $350,000, we'll finally know the limits of the luxury market. We don't get to dictate the limits of that world - they do. We just hope that enough scraps fall from their table to keep us happy.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
I will stick with Venture and Hegel, thank you very much.
Yeah, Playback Designs I can handle... I'll skip the rest...
Sound to me like a sophisticated way of saying the high-end market is driven by snobs ("luxury goods buyers"), not audio enthusiasts, which is indeed a sad state of affairs.
Not totally, but that's how it is at the moment. There's some crossover (people who buy expensive things, who are interested in audio), but there are a lot of products being bought on aspirational demands alone, especially among the new middle classes of Asia.
But I wouldn't say 'snobs'. Just people with a lot of folding. They are no more or less snobby than audio enthusiasts. If you want to see snobbery in action, invite an audiophile to listen to your new Bose system.
The thing is, if a coterie of loony rich whales in Bejing all blow the equivalent of a squillion dollars on the latest Playback Designs or dCS flagship, it means the brands can keep going while the rest of us save up to afford the devices we can afford. Without that 'patronage', there would be a lot less equipment for the rest of us to play with.
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The main reason i think people in asia have $$$$ to spend these days , is that they moved away from communism to a more free market .
Mainland europe does exactly the opposite , centralizing power(increase corruption) introduce socialism among countries ...... we all know whos gonna be buying the luxury goods in the future to come, the vast majority of mercedes and bmw is sold to asia , they got $$$ and they want to spent it , one spends it on audio the other on horses, boats whatever.
Mainland europe does exactly the opposite , centralizing power(increase corruption) introduce socialism among countries ...... we all know whos gonna be buying the luxury goods in the future to come
, the vast majority of mercedes and bmw is sold to asia , they got $$$ and they want to spent it , one spends it on audio the other on horses, boats whatever.
+1.
and a programmable dac helps to avoid obsolesence.
i've had my PD for 6 years and it's still competitive with the top level. how many other 6 year old digital units are still considered top level? and can handle dsd and 2xdsd from a server?
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
That's why you need digital that can grow as the industry moves forward. The MSB and Playback fit with bill being upgradable with just a USB connection!
I do think an expirienced system builder who knows what to spend where and what , can put together a system for lets say 50- 75 K second hand , that cannot be beat at any price .
People with a lot of money but with no clue as to spend where or what do not achieve that level , with a good dealer yes , but they are not all good , dont carry all brands and usually advertize what they sell , in holland quit a few declare what is the best simply because its the brands they carry and there are a lot who simply go with that flow and think no further
People with a lot of money but with no clue as to spend where or what do not achieve that level , with a good dealer yes , but they are not all good , dont carry all brands and usually advertize what they sell , in holland quit a few declare what is the best simply because its the brands they carry
and there are a lot who simply go with that flow and think no further
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
-- I was looking at Bill's website (Purity Audio Design), and noticed the design of the components (external looks), and couldn't stop making a comparison (in my head) between their looks and the ones of Emotiva's products (in particular those 'blue' lights on the 'black' front faces, and also the 'silver' push-buttons and wheel-knobs).
Now, I know nothing about 'Purity' products; just a simple remark on the outside looks.
...And I know nothing either about their prices, and internals.
But I do know about Emotiva's products, and I do know about their prices, and internals as well.
Now, I know nothing about 'Purity' products; just a simple remark on the outside looks.
...And I know nothing either about their prices, and internals.
But I do know about Emotiva's products, and I do know about their prices, and internals as well.
True , forgot to mention that , if we bring that into the equasion , i would have a soundproof room built with tapered walls slightly treated and take another 25 K of the table and it would still be among the best (in my opinion)
That does not change the fact that someone may build a DAC of the same caliber as a current very expensive DAC (say MSB), and sell it for 1/4 of the price (or even a lot less) in two years time, much like Oppo commoditized the universal player market.
Exactly my approach (and budget range give or take a few grand).... However, I am confident a well designed room/system with a few 100K worth of gear (a la Mike) will handily beat my system. BUT a few 100K worth of ultra expensive kit randomly wired up and dumped in a room will not.
I will stick with Venture and Hegel, thank you very much.
---- That's only one of the 'aspects' I like here at WBF. :b
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