Just how much difference does vibration control and cable lifters make to a reasonable level system ?

[IWC Doppel]

I know this is an open ended question. But I wonder if there might be any 'quick' wins to a complex multi-wired system that is not suitable for lifters of anything significant but wondered if there might be some quick wins and considerations. I think I have nearly 300m of cable (possibly more) in an AV system

The system is silent other than very mild transformer hum (I do have something like 30 linear power supplies and 14 monopower amps with big toriodals) it is mild (You can only hear it when near the corner of the racks not from the listening position) and have evolved over many years. I do use internal vibration control with potting, damping material and copper chassis etc for sensitive items and like felt, certain resins, tape, etc. The racking is modest but reasonable given the amount of racking I need and the amount of bass in the room higher than most (I follow a harman curve to 8Hz and have 5 subwoofers)

So I can attempt to tidy but very difficult given the amount off cabling - I do run a relatively complex Signal and power GND set up to keep 0V as close to 0V in most cases and retain dynamics and a low noise floor

Be great to understand a bit more about this because the logic seems difficult to understand, surely carpet has some damping properties in any case ?

So any thoughts on quick wins ?

 

[Cellcbern]

I know this is an open ended question. But I wonder if there might be any 'quick' wins to a complex multi-wired system that is not suitable for lifters of anything significant but wondered if there might be some quick wins and considerations. I think I have nearly 300m of cable (possibly more) in an AV system

The system is silent other than very mild transformer hum (I do have something like 30 linear power supplies and 14 monopower amps with big toriodals) it is mild (You can only hear it when near the corner of the racks not from the listening position) and have evolved over many years. I do use internal vibration control with potting, damping material and copper chassis etc for sensitive items and like felt, certain resins, tape, etc. The racking is modest but reasonable given the amount of racking I need and the amount of bass in the room higher than most (I follow a harman curve to 8Hz and have 5 subwoofers)

So I can attempt to tidy but very difficult given the amount off cabling - I do run a relatively complex Signal and power GND set up to keep 0V as close to 0V in most cases and retain dynamics and a low noise floor

Be great to understand a bit more about this because the logic seems difficult to understand, surely carpet has some damping properties in any case ?

So any thoughts on quick wins ?

View attachment 153240

To my ears eliminating external vibration and draining/dissipating internal component resonances (you have to do both) makes a major difference - as much or more than a major component upgrade. Carpet, curtains, felt, etc. only help with higher frequencies. You can use damping material (e.g., fo.Q damping sheets) inside components to mitigate airborne vibrations and internal component resonances, but you need to isolate the rack legs from the floor, particularly with 5 subwoofers. What kind of feet do the racks have?

In terms of cable lifters I use the relatively inexpensive Audioquest Fog Lifters with some fo.Q damping material on each to absorb vibrations.

FYI:

AudioQuest Fog Lifters - Positive Feedback

If you believe in RFI—no, let me start over. If you believe in science (since RFI is a measurable phenomenon), most likely you are doing something to address RFI. We have all been advised to get those darn wires off the floor. A dozen companies will be happy to sell you specialized lifts at...

positive-feedback.com

Fog Lifters

6moons.com

 

[ADGold]

I was always skeptical of cable lifters but decided to pursue a low cost solution with a set from Amazon by a brand called Preffair. There was an immediate and obvious improvement to my surprise.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I know this is an open ended question. But I wonder if there might be any 'quick' wins to a complex multi-wired system that is not suitable for lifters of anything significant but wondered if there might be some quick wins and considerations. I think I have nearly 300m of cable (possibly more) in an AV system

So I can attempt to tidy but very difficult given the amount off cabling - I do run a relatively complex Signal and power GND set up to keep 0V as close to 0V in most cases and retain dynamics and a low noise floor

Be great to understand a bit more about this because the logic seems difficult to understand, surely carpet has some damping properties in any case ?

So any thoughts on quick wins ?

easy for cheap wins relative to the cost of our gear or the cost of cables. but quick? not sure.

ultimately think of your cables as musical instruments that have a noise when they vibrate. they will 'sing' along with the music from the musical energy in your room. also; think of your cables as loads that weigh down your gear and reduce the effectiveness of your vibration isolation efforts. so these cable organization efforts can yield audible results depending on the overall performance and noise level of your system.

for resonance control i use active isolation devices, the Herzan TS based Taiko Tana systems. but if my heavy cables are pulling down on my gear then it dampens the effectiveness the active systems sensors and actuators to function optimally. so i float my heavy speaker cables to unweight them. to do this was very cheap and easy. i bought a couple of marble based towel racks and got some short bungee cords and suspended them. i could easily hear the audible difference in the additional textures in the dynamics and improved music focus. it was more real.

i also use the passive Audioquest Fog cable lifters. but you have to be careful that you don't use too many as it can change the tonality of your system. so tune them accordingly.

my system has very low noise to begin with and my amps and speakers are very effective. so i am hearing what can be heard. not every system reveals changes at the same level.

will passive isolation efforts be as rewarded by such efforts? maybe not as easy to hear but it will make some degree of difference.

 

[Gunnar]

Interesting subject. I’m not an expert but what I noticed that’s not just the shelves but also the type of floor has an impact on the need to “isolate” the floor. In our existing house we have a concrete slabs of I guess 35 cm. And it’s stiff. Jumping on the floor no reaction on a Vibrometer just pain in the feet. Nevertheless I have some .

Impressing to see 9*135. How is your setup?

 

[IWC Doppel]

To my ears eliminating external vibration and draining/dissipating internal component resonances (you have to do both) makes a major difference - as much or more than a major component upgrade. Carpet, curtains, felt, etc. only help with higher frequencies. You can use damping material (e.g., fo.Q damping sheets) inside components to mitigate airborne vibrations and internal component resonances, but you need to isolate the rack legs from the floor, particularly with 5 subwoofers. What kind of feet do the racks have?

In terms of cable lifters I use the relatively inexpensive Audioquest Fog Lifters with some fo.Q damping material on each to absorb vibrations.

FYI:

AudioQuest Fog Lifters - Positive Feedback

If you believe in RFI—no, let me start over. If you believe in science (since RFI is a measurable phenomenon), most likely you are doing something to address RFI. We have all been advised to get those darn wires off the floor. A dozen companies will be happy to sell you specialized lifts at...

positive-feedback.com

Fog Lifters

6moons.com

The racks have spiked feet into a suspended floor, feeling the top of the racks they are relatively damped a lot of bass and not much vibration I have used felt based feet which seems to help a bit as well. I so use dampening material internally when upgrading components and caps and use dynomat or equivalent on case lids and sides where possible. the mains cables are heavy gauge 6mm^2 rubber cased studio cable, heavy and low impedance so perhaps that's better than other options.

Maybe I should have a look at which cables seem to 'move' easily ?

I could do lots of cable ties but I'd have to cut again to make any changes

 

[IWC Doppel]

Interesting subject. I’m not an expert but what I noticed that’s not just the shelves but also the type of floor has an impact on the need to “isolate” the floor. In our existing house we have a concrete slabs of I guess 35 cm. And it’s stiff. Jumping on the floor no reaction on a Vibrometer just pain in the feet. Nevertheless I have some .

Impressing to see 9*135. How is your setup?

Yes a lot of old school naim and old Sonus Fabers, I use analogue out from a heavily modified Panasonic player and run through 4 tweaked naim 32.5’s I just need to manually match volumes but that have been calibrated so as long as they read the same all is good

I use a DSP only on the subs and run parallel feeds from each channel so direct is not compromised

Been a long journey but getting there on audio integration I just couldn’t get on with modern processors

 

[thedudeabides]

If the cables are not visible and you have no aesthetic concerns, cd cases work quite well to raise cable off the floor.

 

[Gregm]

The racks have spiked feet into a suspended floor,

That is a great looking system!
A thought: the spikes couple the rack to the suspended floor. Whihc means it will dance with the floor.
Why not try out *decoupling* the rack using the usual isolation stuff usually destined for speakers (isoacoustics etc). I use Alto Extremo -- just because they were readily available -- to good effect (more perceived clarity -- i.e. upper mid-range cleared).
I would also recommend you try decoupling your speakers from the suspended floor.

 

[IWC Doppel]

If the cables are not visible and you have no aesthetic concerns, cd cases work quite well to raise cable off the floor.

What about cut foam, I could try something like black acoustic foam under the cables

 

[thedudeabides]

What about cut foam, I could try something like black acoustic foam under the cables

Why not? More functional. Better looking. Better idea. And yes, well worth the effort.

 

[Tam Lin]

Vibrating speaker wire on the floor is insignificant compared to the vibrating wire in the speaker voice coil. To really eliminate vibrating speaker wire you must first dampen the vibration of the voice coil.

 

[Paul1960]

What about cut foam, I could try something like black acoustic foam under the cables

Go to your local Dollar store and buy a bunch of swim noodles and cut them into pieces and then slice a slot lengthwise and you have a cable lifter/separator for pennies. And you get vibration control for free LOL.

FWIW, I personally have never heard any benefit from these, or any other, cable lifters but I see no harm so I still use them. I do use expensive power cords for gear in the signal path but the power cord shown there is just used for the stator in the electrostatic speaker and it is actually already shielded.

 

[thedudeabides]

Better idea.

 

[thedudeabides]

Vibrating speaker wire on the floor is insignificant compared to the vibrating wire in the speaker voice coil. To really eliminate vibrating speaker wire you must first dampen the vibration of the voice coil.

Don't think he was asking about internal vibrations. You might consider starting a new thread. Maybe get some interest (?) from those who want (and are able) to access the interior of their speaker enclosure.