Lampizator announcement: launch of our all new TOTL HORIZON DAC
- Thread starter Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus
- Start date
Apology to everyone who were planning to attend. As Fred mentioned we had 44 confirmed attendees. Hopefully, we will reschedule for a future date that works for everyone.
Feeling bit drained.
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Wish you a fast and full recovery
Have you reached out to Fred from LampiNA?Steve....LOL, I would truly understand that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Christoph -- No need now as I should get mine in October. Lampi was short a part.
ANNOUNCEMENT:
All good things must come to an end.
We've tried to keep the trade in program going as long as we can, but effective October 1, 2022 we are going to have to abandon trade ins towards the Horizon (and ALL other products). If you have been on the fence about an upgrade, you may consider this "last call" and please hit me up as soon as possible.
Best,
Fred A.
All good things must come to an end.
We've tried to keep the trade in program going as long as we can, but effective October 1, 2022 we are going to have to abandon trade ins towards the Horizon (and ALL other products). If you have been on the fence about an upgrade, you may consider this "last call" and please hit me up as soon as possible.
Best,
Fred A.
@Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus Could you please inform whether the absolute phase of the Horizon's output is in phase or out of phase with the input. Thanks in advance for your answer.
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Hi Moladiego. The output audio signal absolute phase on my Horizon is the same as it was on my Pacific if that helps. I've found that there are some labels/performers that consistently require the phase switch to be set to "inverted" in my system. As an example, CD's on EMI with Klemperer conducting are frequently in the minority of recordings' absolute phase setting. Note that I identify these as having inverted phase based on the sound. On my system I select the phase switch for each recording by ear to the setting that has the hallmarks of sounding "in phase" compared with the opposite phase switch setting on my controller. It just takes a few seconds to hear the difference.
Unfortunately, ensuring that the DAC output is in-phase with the source input will not ensure that the signal on the source was in-phase to start with. That's where an absolute phase switch on your preamp or controller is necessary.
Unfortunately, ensuring that the DAC output is in-phase with the source input will not ensure that the signal on the source was in-phase to start with. That's where an absolute phase switch on your preamp or controller is necessary.
Hello, thanks for your feedback. I still hope that Lukasz will provide a definitive answer to this question: "If we compare the absolute phase of the input signal to the output signal, will the Horizon DAC preserve the absolute phase of the original signal or will it invert (shift by 180 degrees) phase?" Some people may be able to use a device to measure the DAC, but I don't have the means or knowhow. Your answer does not address my specific question. This has nothing to do with build quality or normative configuration. I was informed that a DAC chip will invert absolute phase of the input in output unless the phase inversion is specifically reset in the circuit board of a DAC. I was asking only because I want to reconfigure the setup of my one-of-a-kind cables which are very sensitive to phase and direction. I was told that early recordings were sometimes recorded out of phase, but recordings these days are practically all in phase. I am delighted that you mentioned EMI Klemperer (his recordings mean whole lot to me than any recordings from the likes of Karajan - listen to Klemperer's classic recording of Brahms' Ein Deutsches Requiem remastered by Esoteric in DSD/SACD format! A recording of the century indeed).
I can tell you how to test it using more then one source
phase is easy to hear even if from alt sources
but there must be a test tract one can use and observe the woofer cone moving in or out
so to know absolute phase of your chain
but a bigger question is how can you know the rest of the chain is absolute
lastly the source from instruments to your recording
but there are times when you do need to know phasing when subs are used As one example
even if the dac is absolute in phase the varying formats may not be
meaning if one owns multiple formats it’s an unknown anyway
phase is easy to hear even if from alt sources
but there must be a test tract one can use and observe the woofer cone moving in or out
so to know absolute phase of your chain
but a bigger question is how can you know the rest of the chain is absolute
lastly the source from instruments to your recording
but there are times when you do need to know phasing when subs are used As one example
even if the dac is absolute in phase the varying formats may not be
meaning if one owns multiple formats it’s an unknown anyway
My experiences are similar in terms of absolute phase. Relatively easy to hear the difference once you tune into what to hear. However, you need to have a phase inversion switch on your preamp to be able to switch between the two phases easily. For classical records, I have found that the vast majority are recorded in the same phase, with different labels having one phase or the other quite consistently. However, for pop/rock albums which are multimiked and recorded in different locations and times, there can be parts of the recording where one or more instruments is recorded in one phase and other parts that are recorded in the opposite phase, and even different songs on the same album being recorded in different phases.
As for equipment, there are deliberate choices that some companies make to have their equipment to invert phase so they can have one less gain stage. For example my Conrad-Johnson preamp says that it inverts absolute phase in its instruction manual
If you don't have a phase inversion switch, you can invert phase by switching the speaker wires between black and red on both speakers in a stereo system, but that is often inconvenient and people live with whatever phase the system as a whole has.
Obviously, this is not talking about having one channel out of phase with the other channel which is very obvious to hear.
Larry
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
If you have access to a DAC that has known absolute polarity, it is very simple to check the absolute polarity of any DAC - feed both in simultaneous with a SPDIF track of a low frequency signal, such as 50Hz - the signal period will be much higher than the difference in the latency of the DACs.
Measure the amplitude of the left single ended (RCA) outputs of both DACs . Then measure the signal between the hot (signal) points of both left single ended outputs (the center pin of RCAs) .
If the value is the sum of both initial measurements they have the same phase, if the value is their difference they have opposite absolute phase.
Surely looking at the Lissajous picture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lissajous_curve in a scope is much more elegant! https://zeitnitz.eu/scope_en
This method can be used along the whole audio chain.
Edit - Stereophile measurements of DACs refer the absolute polarity - for example I know my dCS Vivaldi analog outputs "preserve absolute polarity".
Measure the amplitude of the left single ended (RCA) outputs of both DACs . Then measure the signal between the hot (signal) points of both left single ended outputs (the center pin of RCAs) .
If the value is the sum of both initial measurements they have the same phase, if the value is their difference they have opposite absolute phase.
Surely looking at the Lissajous picture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lissajous_curve in a scope is much more elegant! https://zeitnitz.eu/scope_en
This method can be used along the whole audio chain.
Edit - Stereophile measurements of DACs refer the absolute polarity - for example I know my dCS Vivaldi analog outputs "preserve absolute polarity".
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Again, I've confirmed that my Horizon inverts absolute polarity with several different tests, but curious to hear Lukasz's perspective
To be clear -- this is the DAC function -- pretty sure when I tested the analog inputs to the Horizon absolute polarity was preserved.
To be clear -- this is the DAC function -- pretty sure when I tested the analog inputs to the Horizon absolute polarity was preserved.
Hi David, we are all waiting to hear from Lukasz to be definitive. Thanks for your comment. @Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus. I was told by a digital expert that some DAC chips invert the absolute phase of output from that of input and a purist (minimalist) approach is to keep the inverted state unchanged (because re-inversion would result in additional complexity to the circuit board, potentially compromising SQ). If Horizon is the same as Pacific, which I am using for now, the absolute phase of Horizon's output would likely be out of phase with its inputs. I did an experiment last night, reversing the direction of the pair of ICs between Pacific and an integrated amp (the output of which is the same as its inputs for absolute phase) + inverting the polarity (but not the signal direction) of the speaker cable connections (of both channels) at the amp side (switching + and - ), as I was educated by the owner of OMEGA MIKRO - Audio Cables, DIY Audio INTERCONNECTS (whose "OM cables" are specially designed for optimal phase direction, which I am using. (I resorted to this unusual cable inversion method because I have no phase-inverting component, e.g., a preamp or DAC, in my system.) The improvement to SQ was not subtle (based on only 1 hour of listening) - sound became noticeably more transparent, more present and the dullness of the sound got lifted by 2 notches. You can run the same experiment, but the direction of your interconnect cables may not benefit from reversal (OM cables are unique for being designed for optimal phase direction rather than EMI reduction direction). Subject to the rule of thumb below, you should switch the + and - of your speaker cables either at the amp's end or the speakers' end (but not both). I am not talking here about the absolute phase of recordings. The rule of thumb: if an odd number(s) of components have inverted output phase, do the above cable switching; if an even number of components have inverted phase in outputs, do nothing to your standard setup. It would be ideal, of course, if the Horizon DAC has a digital (or physical) phase inversion switch (even more ideally actionable from the remote control as some people have commented on this forum) provided such inversion switch does not degrade SQ.
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Finally! It is raining Horizons. Everybody waiting, up to the position 70, will get his in next week or two. We are only struggling to pack them well and issue documents. The long queue will be history. We hope to get to number 100 before christmas. Today I finally got mine. Just got my fiber optic internet installed so the room is ready.
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steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Tell us what tubes you’re using
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