Measuring power line capacity with the IDEAL SureTest, and the effect of Shunyata power products

[VLS]

Oh sure, you can exceed 3-4x the breaker rating for very short bursts. But again ... 300A vs 600A. We're supposing this matters?

You’re right, this difference *may* not be audible in a particular system.

OTOH, if you can make small/cheap changes in your power delivery that improve this number, why not do so? Having lots of unfettered clean power is good, and certainly better than going in the other direction.

In my own system/experience, low AWG in the wall wiring and in the PCs (and an associated high instant current capacity of > 700amps) has an easily discernible audible benefit compared to regular wiring.

 

[bazelio]

I'm not saying whether or not one should do anything. But I will say that statements such as "Furutech is designed to make systems sound soft" as a result of a 350A measurement is pretty funny.

 

[PeterA]

In my own system/experience, low AWG in the wall wiring and in the PCs (and an associated high instant current capacity of > 700amps) has an easily discernible audible benefit compared to regular wiring.

Vlad, I had the opposite experience in my own system. The 8 AWG did not sound as good as 10 AWG in my walls going to the same breakers and the same outlets at same length. It might be because the 8 AWG was audio file grade JPS labs wire and the 10 AWG was industrial grade commercial wire. I don’t know but I pulled out the audio file wire.

I had a similar experience with power cords but I suspect that had more to do with connectors, wire geometry, and wire composition then the gauge. In my experience, thicker is not always better and that was with my former power-hungry system.

These subjective results are based only on listening and not on measurements.

 

[bazelio]

Right. The supposition that current carrying capacity is such a highly correlated proxy for good sound that one should go forward and tear out in-wall wiring in favor of thicker conductors and seek out any outlet that comes out on top in this particular test ... is .... is ..... something with which to knock yourself out. Have at it.

 

[VLS]

Vlad, I had the opposite experience in my own system. The 8 AWG did not sound as good as 10 AWG in my walls going to the same breakers and the same outlets at same length. It might be because the 8 AWG was audio file grade JPS labs wire and the 10 AWG was industrial grade commercial wire. I don’t know but I pulled out the audio file wire.

I had a similar experience with power cords but I suspect that had more to do with connectors, wire geometry, and wire composition then the gauge. In my experience, thicker is not always better and that was with my former power-hungry system.

These subjective results are based only on listening and not on measurements.

Maybe you should go for even finer wire, then?

 

[PeterA]

Thank you for the suggestion.

I have a highly efficient system with relatively short runs of 10-15’ each for four dedicated 30 amp circuits with no conditioning. Perhaps that’s why 10 gauge wiring from the panel to each outlet is sufficient. I tried three different in wall wiring types and I’ve settled on what I now have based on what sounds best.

 

[stehno]

Thank you for the suggestion.

I have a highly efficient system with relatively short runs of 10-15’ each for four dedicated 30 amp circuits with no conditioning. Perhaps that’s why 10 gauge wiring from the panel to each outlet is sufficient. I tried three different in wall wiring types and I’ve settled on what I now have based on what sounds best.

No line conditioning? Now I get that most line conditioners either do nothing or induce their own sonic harm. In fact, back in 2006 I delivered some amps to doctor friend. After about 15 minutes of warm up, I couldn't take it any more and ask if we could try listening without his rather large and hefty active line conditioners that retailed I think for $7000 total. So we removed his popular brand line conditioners and just plugged the components straight into the wall. Even the friend noticed right away how much more musical the playback presentation was and his listening skills improved a bit that same evening. So I ran home and brought back my old Foundation Reseach (now defunct) line conditioners to demonstrate what superior line conditioners can do and his listening skills improved yet again. He ordered 3 line conditioners that same evening.

It can be like finding a needle in a haystack but there are a few superior (as opposed to many inferior) line conditioners out there that actually cleanse, purify, and/or condition the universally noisy AC coming in from the street to one great extent or another and can literally turn an unmusical playback presentation into a musical playback presentation.

I've been using superior line conditioners for 20 years now and rarely do I encounter another playback system worth listening to that does not employ some superior means to clean up the AC. FWIW, for the past 4 years I've been using 3 Jena Labs' The TWO passive, dedicated, and bi-directional filtering line conditioners for each component.

Peter, you really should consider doing some homework here as acquiring superior line conditioners alone should catapult your playback system's level of musicality above your buds. Might this be one reason why your listening skills aren't quite where you think they should be?

 

[stehno]

First of all, thanks to @VLS again for introducing me to to the IDEAL SureTest 61-164 circuit analyzer https://www.amazon.com/Ideal-Industries-INC-Circuit-Analyzer/dp/B08NPPGKKW which retails for some $400

This device measures power line phase, voltage, impedance, leakage to ground, and peak Amperage availability using two algorithms. Although I think it's a great device, it does not provide continuous info other than Voltage, which means the data is a snapshot at the time you power it on, and that's a real pain when trying to get a sense of fluctuation especially current.

To cut to the chase, VLS in this post https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/...fect-of-shyunyata-products.33031/#post-722583 claims to be getting HIGHER amperage out of the Denali v2 and Sigma power cords over a random stock power cord, and he included the following table:

However, I am UNABLE TO CORROBORATE these findings, as shown below. CONFIRMED, SEE BELOW

First, some basic of in-house measurements.

Phase:
...

Hi, ack. I wanna' thank you for this effort. I usually frown on people buying instruments and measuring things as in most cases I suspect even the experts often times don't necesssarily know what they are measuring or what to do with their findings.

But somewhere in this thread you mentioned measuring the output of Furutech outlets and their potentially choaking incoming AC which I've been using for years. In fact, years ago I was dealer for Furutech and which I've encountered some fairly stellar gains with their plugs, IEC connectors and inlets, etc. And my customers too.

Anyway, reading your findings on the Furutech outlets prompted me to do a little homework and I ended up purchasing 4 Jena Labs Hubbell 20A outlets - cryo-ed of course via the superior full-immersion method. I installed them a few weeks ago and within a few short days of burn-in the results were far from minor when I was expecting little or no difference.

BTW, this is not an intentional slam against Furutech as I'm confident their products remain on the performance-oriented side and are better than some. But obviously, just not better than all.

Thanks again for your efforts here. Much appreciated.

 

[PeterA]

No line conditioning?

That is correct. I do not have an aftermarket add-on line conditioner in my system. I’ve heard quite a few, some very highly regarded, and I’ve owned a few. My system sounds better without the ones I’ve tried. I don’t know what you mean by a “superior “line conditioner.

Peter, you really should consider doing some homework here as acquiring superior line conditioners alone should catapult your playback system's level of musicality above your buds. Might this be one reason why your listening skills aren't quite where you think they should be?

First, I have no interest in whether or not my system or my friends’ systems are catapulted beyond one or any other.

Second, I find your comment about my listening skills rather rude. Do you think they are poor because I fail to hear the superiority of your music videos? I am one of the few who’ve actually commented about their sound quality and I am confident in my observations.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[stehno]

That is correct. I do not have an aftermarket add-on line conditioner in my system. I’ve heard quite a few, some very highly regarded, and I’ve owned a few. My system sounds better without the ones I’ve tried.

Your findings here would be quite consistent with what I've been saying for maybe the last 17 years. For example, I've routinely said things like, most line conditioners either do nothing or induce their own sonic harm. Finding a superior line conditioner is like looking for a needle in a haystack, but they do exist. The more popular the manufacturer's name, it seems the more likely it's inferior. Etc, etc.

I don’t know what you mean by a “superior “line conditioner.

So it seems.

First, I have no interest in whether or not my system or my friends’ systems are catapulted beyond one or any other.

Ummmmm, ok.

Second, I find your comment about my listening skills rather rude.

Actually, I didn't say that. If you reread my comment above, I thought I was paraphrasing a comment you made in another thread. But if you flat out ask me, based on your comments on my videos and based on other videos you prefer including your own, I'd have no difficulty stating that I think your listening skills are lacking.

But for that matter, show me one whose skills aren't lacking? We all do. In fact, I frequently call this area the industry's greatest weakness and by a wide margin. Surely you don't think your listening skills have arrived, do you?

I've had the pleasure of knowing one (a freelance reviewer) whose listening skills were frickin' off the chart and I've yet to meet another with skills even remotely close. I'm sure he's not alone but I suspect there's but a handful of these types around the world. But even these types aren't perfect and haven't arrived either.

Maybe 4 or 5 years ago, you posted a video of sound in your room and I thought it sounded atrocious. About a year ago, I caught a couple of your videos and thought you'd made great strides and thought they were fairly musical. A few days ago I caught a couple of your latest videos after apparently you replaced most of your system and I thought it was a step backwards. But that's me comparing with old memory so what do I know? If per chance your new system is a step backwards, that could certainly be an indication of lacking listening skills, right? But I've not said a word about any of that until now because frankly I don't care.

Do you think they are poor because I fail to hear the superiority of your music videos? I am one of the few who’ve actually commented about their sound quality and I am confident in my observations.

Thank you for your opinion.

To paraphrase one of your comments from a few weeks ago, if you post a video (or a comment), you have to expect others to provide feedback.

Isn't that what these forums are about, Peter?

 

[PeterA]

Ack who originated this very thread, recently left WBF. Perhaps it had something to do with the tenor of the discourse.

 

[owen lawlor]

Is it possible that ACKs Furutech outlets were knock-offs? These are widely known to have many distributors from C...a known to be fakes. I have one of these outlets here (obtained from a legit Furutech dealer) on a dedicated 20A line and its results have been nothing less than stunning so this is a headscratcher. On the other hand, I had a very fine conditioner here - the Shunyata Everest and didn't really hear much of a difference with it in and out of the system - but it was always plugged into that Furutech. Eye opening to say the least. EDIT: Below are 2 pix - both from agon. One is $140 and the other is $250. Mine looked like the blue box - Ack's is the top pic. They are DIFFERENT.

 

[Kingrex]

Maybe you should go for even finer wire, then?

There are a few reasons a solid 10 will sound better than and 8 in certain situations.

 

[Kingrex]

That is correct. I do not have an aftermarket add-on line conditioner in my system. I’ve heard quite a few, some very highly regarded, and I’ve owned a few. My system sounds better without the ones I’ve tried. I don’t know what you mean by a “superior “line conditioner.

Reciently I completed a project. During our after install evaluation, while listening I noticed an annoying buzz in the power panel. We used a scope and traced down the circuit. We disconnected a power conditioner that was suppose to be removing noise from some SMPS feeding acceasory equipment in the rack. Some power conditioner add more noise than they remove.