Measuring power line noise with the TriField EM100, and the impressive effect of Shyunyata products

[Kingrex]

I am going to order one (the 1800W model) for my computer and smaller ones for the internet router and repeaters. And oops, i will have to change the outlet

View attachment 78928

If I were you I would change the wall outlet to a Hubbell. Much less insertion losses. Better contact. Solid brass. No tin plating. You could use the 20 amp version. But if your going to change, just get the higher ampacity, better current flow item. They will both fit in a single gang box. 20 or 30 amp.

Locking Devices, Twist-Lock®, Industrial, Flush Receptacle, 30A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, L5-30R, Screw Terminal, Black | HBL2610 | Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems

Locking Devices, Twist-Lock®, Industrial, Flush Receptacle, 30A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, L5-30R, Screw Terminal, Black.

www.hubbell.com

Locking Devices, Twist-Lock®, Industrial, Male Plug, 30A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, L5-30P, Screw Terminal, Black and White | HBL2611 | Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems

Locking Devices, Twist-Lock®, Industrial, Male Plug, 30A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, L5-30P, Screw Terminal, Black and White.

www.hubbell.com

 

[Kingrex]

If I were you I would change the wall outlet to a Hubbell. Much less insertion losses. Better contact. Solid brass. No tin plating. You could use the 20 amp version. But if your going to change, just get the higher ampacity, better current flow item. They will both fit in a single gang box. 20 or 30 amp.

Locking Devices, Twist-Lock®, Industrial, Flush Receptacle, 30A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, L5-30R, Screw Terminal, Black | HBL2610 | Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems

Locking Devices, Twist-Lock®, Industrial, Flush Receptacle, 30A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, L5-30R, Screw Terminal, Black.

www.hubbell.com

Locking Devices, Twist-Lock®, Industrial, Male Plug, 30A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, L5-30P, Screw Terminal, Black and White | HBL2611 | Hubbell Wiring Device-Kellems

Locking Devices, Twist-Lock®, Industrial, Male Plug, 30A 125V, 2-Pole 3-Wire Grounding, L5-30P, Screw Terminal, Black and White.

www.hubbell.com

You can also get the Neutrik PowerCon32. The neutrik is technically not UL listed as a device you can put in your wall outlet. And you would have to take a blank stainless plate and drill it out for a 1" hole. But they have a very good contact and quality materials

https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/powercon/powercon-32-a

 

[Al M.]

Sheesh- a good power condition would solve all these issues. Unfortunately good power conditioners are hard to come by. A passive unit won't do it. In order to deal with all the various things that plague AC lines these days you need a conditioner that can sort everything out.

One of the best I've seen is the Elgar but they were made decades ago. But if you find one and have it properly refurbished your AC noise issues are over- they can regulate line voltage too. I think the newer crop of PSAudio 'regenerators' are pretty good too but I've not had time to experiment with them.

Yes, most power conditioners are bad, that's why I usually avoid them like the plague, and operate straight from wall or over isolation transformer (for source components only).

The Shunyata Denali v2 is excellent, and is on my radar if I want a conditioner. In contrast, in my experience the Shunyata Denali v1 sucked -- as most conditioners do (and you couldn't even plug a power amp into it without starving the amp, counter as advertised). With the new generation stuff Shunyata really seem to have taken a big leap forward.

 

[Kingsrule]

FYI the 1800 does not have free return...

 

[ack]

FYI the 1800 does not have free return...

Yeah, and I am also finding out I don't have the space around there to put it.

 

[VLS]

Interesting bit from Vince Galbo (MSB) from a document that Vlad forwarded to me, called "Dedicated Line Installation 2017":

"Recently I have had success with BIG isolation transformers. They should have a va rating at least 4 times the “va” (voltsamps) rating of your amplifier transformers. So if your amp has a 1000 va (which is 1kva) transformer, the isolation transformer should be 4000 (4kva) minimum. Bigger is better here.
.

Well, my amp has two 1.2kVA transformers, so that suggests a ~10kVA isolation transformer.

Look, here’s one!

Hmm, maybe I’ll stick with my Denali after all…

 

[Mdp632]

Yes, most power conditioners are bad, that's why I usually avoid them like the plague, and operate straight from wall or over isolation transformer (for source components only).

The Shunyata Denali v2 is excellent, and is on my radar if I want a conditioner. In contrast, in my experience the Shunyata Denali v1 sucked -- as most conditioners do (and you couldn't even plug a power amp into it without starving the amp, counter as advertised). With the new generation stuff Shunyata really seem to have taken a big leap forward.

Shunyata classifies their products as distributors rather than conditioners. That aside, I'm confident that the QR/BB tech existed and made its debut in the Denali V1 series.

However, I'm also confident that this module wasn't wired to all 6 outlets on the V1 modes. Additionally, on the V2 and Everest, QR/BB tech is available to all outlets on these products.

Perhaps you might have plugged your amp into a non QR/BB outlet on the V1?

It * could have explained your bad experience with amplifier performance.

 

[Al M.]

Shunyata classifies their products as distributors rather than conditioners. That aside, I'm confident that the QR/BB tech existed and made its debut in the Denali V1 series.

However, I'm also confident that this module wasn't wired to all 6 outlets on the V1 modes. However, on the V2 and Everest, QR/BB tech is available to all outlets on these products.

Perhaps you might have plugged your amp into a non QR/BB outlet on the V1? It * could have explained your bad experience with amplifier performance.

I didn't plug anything in. I just listened to the sound in several other systems and did not like it. I was told by the owners that plugging in the power amp didn't work great -- as usual with conditioners / distributors. The Denali v2 is a different beast.

 

[Mdp632]

I didn't plug anything in. I just listened to the sound in several other systems and did not like it. I was told by the owners that plugging in the power amp didn't work great.

Ok maybe they were using the wrong outlet Only one duplex on the V1 models is connected to the QR/BB. The exception being the Denali 2000T model.

 

[ack]

Ok maybe they were using the wrong outlet Only one duplex on the V1 models is connected to the QR/BB. The exception being the Denali 2000T model.

I think it's more subtle than that, and the owners & Al are probably right. Here's a snippet from the Audiobeat Denali 6000S/v2 review http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/shunyata_research_denali_6000s_v2.htm

While that [V1] network was designed for maximum noise reduction, the new one has been refined to also allow maximum throughput of instantaneous current -- what amplifiers need. Further, while each pair of outlets for the original Denali units had one filter, now each outlet has its own filter, and all are rated for high-current throughput.

 

[Mdp632]

I think it's more subtle than that, and the owners & Al are probably right. Here's a snippet from the Audiobeat Denali 6000S/v2 review http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/shunyata_research_denali_6000s_v2.htm

While that [V1] network was designed for maximum noise reduction, the new one has been refined to also allow maximum throughput of instantaneous current -- what amplifiers need. Further, while each pair of outlets for the original Denali units had one filter, now each outlet has its own filter, and all are rated for high-current throughput.

I have no doubts the sum of all parts for the V2 is an improvement over the V1. I trust and use Shunyata products.

I owned a Denali 6000T. Now, I've never heard the V2 in my system so, I can't speak to comparison on the V1.

Nor, can I say the Denali V1 took anything away from my system as it replaced a Triton V1.

So, my personal experience with the Denali V1 was positive.

Perhaps someday I'll get a V2 or Everest.

 

[ack]

@VLS went from the Denali V1 to V2 recently; perhaps he can chime in

 

[VLS]

@VLS went from the Denali V1 to V2 recently; perhaps he can chime in

I used the 2000T (the so called “high current” version). Did an OK job on my DAC (modest noise reduction), but my amp was never happy (dynamics suffered), and I ended up with it plugged directly into its own dedicated line.

The amp now sounds *far* better plugged into the V2 than directly into its own line. It sounds strikingly “cleaner” and transparent via the v2, and dynamics are unaffected. The DAC also sounds best plugged into the same v2.

BTW, my 2000T is available for a good price .

 

[Kingrex]

Al, what did you hear with the triplite on the DAC.

And I know this is getting way off topic, but what about a Torus wall mount. Anyone try one of these.

Torus Power Wall Mount Series for North America

Torus Power Isolation Transformers Wall Mount (WM) series supplying clean power to Canada and USA.

www.toruspower.com

 

[Al M.]

Al, what did you hear with the triplite on the DAC.

Cleaner sound, as you did. But I need to go back and check at some point. First, better in-wall wiring.

 

[Solypsa]

Sheesh- a good power condition would solve all these issues. Unfortunately good power conditioners are hard to come by. A passive unit won't do it. In order to deal with all the various things that plague AC lines these days you need a conditioner that can sort everything out.

One of the best I've seen is the Elgar but they were made decades ago. But if you find one and have it properly refurbished your AC noise issues are over- they can regulate line voltage too. I think the newer crop of PSAudio 'regenerators' are pretty good too but I've not had time to experiment with them.

I have a client with an Elgar...it is noisy ( physically ) as all get out. Whats involved in a refurb?

 

[ACHiPo]

I have a client with an Elgar...it is noisy ( physically ) as all get out. Whats involved in a refurb?

I thought about installing an Elgar in the basement below my listening room because of the size and noise, but the logistics overwhelmed me and I compromised with two dedicated circuits, a 15A for the front end and a 20A for the amps and subs. (Plus I suspect I'd be able to hear it--I can hear the sump pump kick on and it's relatively quiet).

 

[BlueFox]

When I had each amp (Pass 600.5) plugged into its own dedicated 20 amp line they sounded fine. When I added a Denali 2000 to each amp, they really opened up. The sound was cleaner, clearer, and more coherent. I was amazed at the improvement. When Shunyata comes out with the next generation power conditioners and power cords I will do my final upgrade, but for now I will just enjoy the music.

 

[Atmasphere]

I have a client with an Elgar...it is noisy ( physically ) as all get out. Whats involved in a refurb?

The noise is from a cooling fan for the power amp in the unit. The power amp drives a feedback winding on the unit's isolation transformer, or is used to buck the AC line voltage with the feedback directly depending on the particular model. Refurbishment consists of replacing the filter capacitors in the power supplies and making sure that the unit is properly calibrated. It uses a frequency sensitive circuit which has to be peaked at 60Hz so it can synchronize its local low-distortion 60Hz oscillator properly with the AC line. The oscillator is use as a reference to insure low distortion of the output.

As pointed out they are not practical in the audio room due to the fan and are best installed near the breaker box, with the room circuit to be conditioned wired to its output. If this is the plan I think the larger 5000VA units are more practical since they can handle most amps made unless they are truly something monster. They are designed for 24/7 operation since they were built for industrial/commercial applications. Since commercial electronics evolved over time to be less sensitive to AC power, Elgar got out of the power conditioner market a long time ago. It would be nice if someone in high end audio were to pick up the torch- the PS Audio stuff is as close as it gets IME so far. The Elgars are sophisticated and durable, putting 95% or more of all 'high end audio conditioners' to shame- so much rubbish. But I've no doubt to make something like this today would easily be $20K or more. But with that as perspective, obtaining and refurbishing an Elgar can be relatively inexpensive, especially when compared to what passes as 'power conditioning' in high end these days.

If I sound a bit inflamitory its simply because I've worked with them first hand. In a nutshell you'd be unconcerned about what other AC noise sources existed in your house or the incoming AC.

 

[peter pan]

in a nutshell, all active devices produce theyr own sonic and limitations (none with the power of the original, it is always a loss in multiple parameters),
thats why they dissapear over time.

i do really apprecite all the measurements. they do count! remove the bad units or put a filter in front of them.
on the other side, pure sonicly, one can relay very relaxed on the experience over decades what really counts and has evolved. POWERSUPPLIES, POWERCORDS AND PASSIVE POWERDISTRIBUTORS.