Measuring power line noise with the TriField EM100, and the impressive effect of Shyunyata products

[Al M.]

If you are using an isolation transformer, the rule of thumb is do not exceed 50% of the rating of the transformer. Otherwise it will produce significant distortion.

Yes, I am ultra-conservative. The transformers are rated at 1000 W each, and each one of them has an approx. 35 W load.

 

[VLS]

Yes, I am ultra-conservative. The transformers are rated at 1000 W each, and each one of them has an approx. 35 W load.

I can’t say I understand how all this works all that well, but I believe what matters more than the average rating of 35W is the instantaneous peak current draw by your components. (That’s why 10 or less AWG AC lines make a difference, even though given the average steady state draw from amplifiers that would seem overkill). So I don’t know whether that means 1000W is enough. I guess if it sounds OK it must be .

 

[Al M.]

I can’t say I understand how all this works all that well, but I believe what matters more than the average rating of 35W is the instantaneous peak current draw by your components. (That’s why 10 or less AWG AC lines make a difference, even though given the average steady state draw from amplifiers that would seem overkill). So I don’t know whether that means 1000W is enough. I guess if it sounds OK it must be .

I don't think you can compare digital components with power amps. With the latter there may be substantial peak draw above average; with a digital component I would not expect that.

Even if, let's say, by thought experiment there would a three times higher draw than average by the power supplies of the digital components at the moment of peak draw (seems unlikely?), it would still just be a ca. 10 % load on the transformer (ca. 100 W load at a transformer rating of 1000 W).

I would not put a power amp on an isolation transformer.

 

[VLS]

I don't think you can compare digital components with power amps. With the latter there may be substantial peak draw above average; with a digital component I would not expect that.

Even if, let's say, by thought experiment there would a three times higher draw than average by the power supplies of the digital components at the moment of peak draw (seems unlikely?), it would still just be a ca. 10 % load on the transformer (ca. 100 W load at a transformer rating of 1000 W).

I would not put a power amp on an isolation transformer.

I think you are right that the CD transport probably presents a fairly constant load. But a DAC has an analog output stage and its current draw probably varies quite a bit. But the amount probably depends on the brand. My MSB can drive an amp directly, and I know it likes ample AC power. And that’s certainly true of preamps - the Spectral DMC 30SV claims to be able to put out a whole amp at 60V, so it probably wouldn’t be happy with a transformer.

But as I said, your listening has clearly confirmed that this is OK in your system.

 

[Kingrex]

I never liked any of my equipment on a Triplite. But I never though to put my modem, router and switch on it. I may give that a try.

I do have a 2.4 kva topaz transformer that worked well with a CJ amp. But nothing else.

I do like all the experiments people are doing with the Trifield. Problem is, we really have no idea what the numbers on the display really mean. On the 11th I am suppose to receive my Fluke 125B scope meter. Its time I have real measurements of what I am doing. I know what I do has audible gains. What I don't know if what sort of changes to the power supply I am creating. I can measure the gound. I can see MV of potential between the neutral and ground at various points in the power supply. But there is a lot I can not see without a scope.

This scope will let me see the wave. I can see the harmonics and what intensity they are at. I can see the power factor and the relation of apparent power to working power. I'm pretty excited to get it. I have 2 engineers lined up to help me create a work flow process with it. One of these engineers has asked to be a part time consultant with my company in 1.5 years when he retires. He hopes I can keep him from getting bored.

One of the first things I will do is study dimmers and see what is really going on. Figure out which really work.
I also want to know what impact a solar systems has on the home.
I also want to know what computers and other smps such as the ones powering the modem, router and switch have.
I don't have a Denali anymore to examine its output. I can go to a friends place and measure his Super Titan.
I wonder if I can measure voltage sag when large transient peaks hit in music passages. I would assume I can set a trigger to show me the dips and possible reactive peaks as the power jumps back.

We shall see.

 

[Kingrex]

Hmmm. I plugged my modem, router and switch LPS into my Triplite medical grade transformer. I lost about 150 mbps internet speed. Tomorrow I will listen and see if I hear anything.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hmmm. I plugged my modem, router and switch LPS into my Triplite medical grade transformer. I lost about 150 mbps internet speed. Tomorrow I will listen and see if I hear anything.

Aren't the Tripp Lite IsoBars just old-style, power absorbing, low pass filters + varistor surge protection?

 

[ArnoFenn]

I never liked any of my equipment on a Triplite. But I never though to put my modem, router and switch on it. I may give that a try.

I do have a 2.4 kva topaz transformer that worked well with a CJ amp. But nothing else.

I do like all the experiments people are doing with the Trifield. Problem is, we really have no idea what the numbers on the display really mean. On the 11th I am suppose to receive my Fluke 125B scope meter. Its time I have real measurements of what I am doing. I know what I do has audible gains. What I don't know if what sort of changes to the power supply I am creating. I can measure the gound. I can see MV of potential between the neutral and ground at various points in the power supply. But there is a lot I can not see without a scope.

Also got that Fluke some time ago and you'll be surprised how much THD there can be on the current (while voltage THD seems reasonable). I did trials on filering out the 5th and 3rd harmonics and When listening to music there was a significant difference with/without, but my trial was a temporary LC shunt (active THD systems single phase could be a solution). Anyhow, I don't have any shunyata but I would be eager to "screen one" ;-)

Oh yes, my latest power upgrade was a 3kVA balanced isolation transformer and that made a significant difference in measurement and sound ;-)

 

[Al M.]

Aren't the Tripp Lite IsoBars just old-style, power absorbing, low pass filters + varistor surge protection?

Those are different:

Isobar Surge Protector, 4 Outlet, 3300 Joules, LED | Eaton Tripp Lite

Protection for A/V components, network hardware, retail displays, appliances, power tools and other electronics against dangerous surges, spikes and line noise.

www.tripplite.com

Isolation transformer:

Isolator Medical-Grade Isolation Transformer, 4-Outlet, 1000W | Eaton

Isolator Series UL 60601-1 Listed Medical-Grade Isolation Transformers offer line isolation and continuous noise filtering. An internal low-impedance isolation transformer component offers 100% isolation from the input AC line. Full UL 60601-1 medical-grade listing with hospital-grade plug and...

www.tripplite.com

 

[ack]

Glad to see all this is spurring more investigations. I would not personally spend over $3k for the fluke and I wouldn’t know how to utilize it beyond some basic functions

 

[Kingrex]

Glad to see all this is spurring more investigations. I would not personally spend over $3k for the fluke and I wouldn’t know how to utilize it beyond some basic functions

That is why I made sure to have a couple engineers ready to train me on specifics.

 

[Kingrex]

Those are different:

Isobar Surge Protector, 4 Outlet, 3300 Joules, LED | Eaton Tripp Lite

Protection for A/V components, network hardware, retail displays, appliances, power tools and other electronics against dangerous surges, spikes and line noise.

www.tripplite.com

Isolation transformer:

Isolator Medical-Grade Isolation Transformer, 4-Outlet, 1000W | Eaton

Isolator Series UL 60601-1 Listed Medical-Grade Isolation Transformers offer line isolation and continuous noise filtering. An internal low-impedance isolation transformer component offers 100% isolation from the input AC line. Full UL 60601-1 medical-grade listing with hospital-grade plug and...

www.tripplite.com

I have the medical grade transformer. I need to listen today.

 

[Kingrex]

Also got that Fluke some time ago and you'll be surprised how much THD there can be on the current (while voltage THD seems reasonable).

I will make sure to look at both. Thanks.

 

[Kingrex]

I put my modem, router and switch LPS into the triplite transformer last night. Today I moved just the switch between the wall and the transformer. It takes way less time to reset. On Oscsr Peterson plays Jerome Kern, A Fine Romance, through the transformer the piano is more clean and clear. The bass has better seperarion and bite. The whole of the song has more distinct separation of instruments. Less smear.

 

[Kingsrule]

These Tripplite's are $400, pretty inexpensive. I'm thinking about ordering 2, one for my MSB DAC and one for my Extreme server. Amazon Prime and free return.....

 

[Al M.]

These Tripplite's are $400, pretty inexpensive. I'm thinking about ordering 2, one for my MSB DAC and one for my Extreme server. Amazon Prime and free return.....

The low price is what enticed me to purchase them as well. Your MSB DAC has a 100 W power consumption (with 2 power bases), which might be on the high side of what still sounds good with the TrippLite. I couldn't find on the quick data for the Extreme. I'd order one first and see if it does anything, good or bad (for the latter, try reduction of energy and vividness of sound), on either of these components. Depending on that I'd purchase a second one or not.

Interesting bit from Vince Galbo (MSB) from a document that Vlad forwarded to me, called "Dedicated Line Installation 2017":

"Recently I have had success with BIG isolation transformers. They should have a va rating at least 4 times the “va” (voltsamps) rating of your amplifier transformers. So if your amp has a 1000 va (which is 1kva) transformer, the isolation transformer should be 4000 (4kva) minimum. Bigger is better here. For people on a budget and for front ends only ends I suggest the Tripplite HS1800 medical grade transformer with a passive filter plugged in like the one from Greenwave. Never plug in or unplug a filter unless all equipment is turned off. These filters reduce hi freq noise by “reactance”(meaning they store and release power by time shifting) and therefore they can create a surge until they have settled down for a few seconds. I only mention the subject of line conditioners and isolation transformers to be complete. I prefer the amps straight in the wall and do try line conditioners on the front end judging by ear. In any case, try to audition line conditioners before you buy. Conditioning is probably most important for DACs and digital sources because of the digital clocks running at "insane" accuracies. Bad power may make the clock jitter worse in addition to adding ground noise to the analog circuitry and signal cable connections."

The larger HS1800 transformer that Vince talks about is $ 635 at Amazon.

 

[ack]

Isolation transformer:

Isolator Medical-Grade Isolation Transformer, 4-Outlet, 1000W | Eaton

Isolator Series UL 60601-1 Listed Medical-Grade Isolation Transformers offer line isolation and continuous noise filtering. An internal low-impedance isolation transformer component offers 100% isolation from the input AC line. Full UL 60601-1 medical-grade listing with hospital-grade plug and...

www.tripplite.com

I am going to order one (the 1800W model) for my computer and smaller ones for the internet router and repeaters. And oops, i will have to change the outlet

 

[Atmasphere]

Sheesh- a good power condition would solve all these issues. Unfortunately good power conditioners are hard to come by. A passive unit won't do it. In order to deal with all the various things that plague AC lines these days you need a conditioner that can sort everything out.

One of the best I've seen is the Elgar but they were made decades ago. But if you find one and have it properly refurbished your AC noise issues are over- they can regulate line voltage too. I think the newer crop of PSAudio 'regenerators' are pretty good too but I've not had time to experiment with them.

 

[ack]

Oh jeez, those blacker blacks, here is one the reviews for the Tripp Lite IS1800HG

 

[Kingrex]

You know what is funny. With the transformer, my mbps are down about 100. Using a AQ Cinnamon Ethernet really impacts the internet speed, down about 400. But the perceived change in music reproduction is a gain. So I have verifiably reduced my data transfer speed from my switch to my server by around 500 mbps using an audiophile Ethernet cable and isolation transformer. Yet my digital sound way better (to my ear) set up as such.

Food to digest as we look at data points and try to make decisions based upon them.