Modern speakers vs Vintage speakers

[bonzo75]

How do you use female voice (assuming it's not a singer you know personally*) to assess a system?

 

[bonzo75]

How do you use female voice (assuming it's not a singer you know personally*) to assess a system?

more here. Hopefully you can judge which sounds real and which doesn’t


Thread 'Post your female vocal videos'
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/post-your-female-vocal-videos.31306/

 

[MarcelNL]

Having heard a violin, various female singers and electronic music life on plenty of occasions the audible memory of how things should sound is firmly in place. IMHO there ususally is a development in hearing acuity, some folks have it ight away, some never pick it up, others can learn.
It's not about comparing any specific voice or violin or EDC band (one perhaps could do that using Ruggiero Ricci's 'violins of Cremona') but HOW that 'instrument' sounds, coherence, balance, overtones, dynamics, impact, emotion.

 

[John T]

I had a friend come visit last year, a yoga instructor that sings in a band. Great voice! First time she's been to my house. It's a very spacious room with a 25'H to the ridge beam. A frame, log home.
She caught me by surprise when she said "I just have too" she broke out in song (she knew the acoustics would suit her) and I must say it was very interesting to hear an accomplished voice, live, in my room...

 

[Robh3606]

When occupied you instinctively look up or turn your head as if another person is in the room I think that's a good indicator WRT realism.

Rob

 

[tima]

Having heard a violin, various female singers and electronic music life on plenty of occasions the audible memory of how things should sound is firmly in place. IMHO there ususally is a development in hearing acuity, some folks have it ight away, some never pick it up, others can learn.
It's not about comparing any specific voice or violin or EDC band (one perhaps could do that using Ruggiero Ricci's 'violins of Cremona') but HOW that 'instrument' sounds, coherence, balance, overtones, dynamics, impact, emotion.

yes, exactly. and it is fun to see how the instruments are played.

 

[the sound of Tao]

That too. There is a snowball effect. There's a reason why we keep hearing the same tracks in demos.

Demonstrations with recordings that are sonically amazeballs and that scale larger than life dominating hifi demos is mostly logical… sensational in effect, safe, familiar and sonically impressive and chosen to immediately have impact in showcasing attributes of the gear. As an exhibitor you get a very small window of opportunity to impress and musical engagement is a slower thing to take hold and appreciate than are immediate fireworks from impressive initial sonic wows.

The problem with hifi show music may not be about the quality of the music itself but just that a constricted formula based experience leads to a monoculture of experiences that come from a small and predictable playlist of hifi’ish sounds in larger than life tracks that lacks musical diversity and expansiveness and the experience for some of us is read as ultimately repetitive, predictable and stale.

Yet others thrive just fine on listening essentially to a small diet of audiophile demo standard recordings all the time and get all they need from having a familiar sonic vibe and don't need a greater range than that… and what does that matter… that’s all good as well.

However I don’t see any issue with your earlier comment about the music at hifi shows and generally don’t remember seeing people here slagging off others for their choice in music hardly at all and that’s (I’d feel) as it should be… we’re much more likely to read some regularly slagging off at others over their gear choices but music choices not so much.

Purely conjecture but maybe contemporary patterns of short attention spans and an ever growing expectation of greater sensation might be the reason modern speakers are perhaps designed for a more immediate wow and sonic weighted rather than musical weighted impression and maybe that is what contemporary audio has become tilted to whereas vintage speakers were designed for cultures exposed to slower paces and more used to slower terms of digestion of experience and a different type or expectation about music and appreciation. Like I said though, just conjecture.

 

[MarcelNL]

Funny thing that I noticed is that at trade shows all the usual suspects are being played and rarely the music the 'DJ" really likes. At DIY gatherings, typically with much better 'presence' of emotion (I get the setup issues/limitations at a show -been there done that) where folks play the music they love and generally listen to.

As a seller, for which I'm not laid out, I'd hate to see someone invest in a system that is capable of creating OO's and AAaa's for a few weeks but in the end does not satisfy the daily music 'needs'.

 

[bonzo75]

modern speakers are perhaps designed for a more immediate wow and sonic weighted rather than musical weighted impression whereas vintage speakers were designed for music and appreciation.

Yet others thrive just fine on listening essentially to a small diet of audiophile demo standard recordings all the time and get all they need from having a familiar sonic vibe and don't need a greater range than that… and what does that matter…

 

[PeterA]

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Yesterday the wedding of my son was done beautuflly in front of 100 guests.

I dropped in some audio shops in Seoul, Korea today.


1. I listened to Magico A5 driven by Sim Audio integrated.

The owner of shop mentioned that Octave vacuum amp fitted with KT150 is the best to drive A5, but not ready for audition today.

Even driven by Sim Audio integrated, A5 sounds fast and clean

It is really good for the money.

I am not sure whether I have enough motivation to replace Lansche 4.1 by Magico A5.

But if I have fresh start with budget of 25K$ on speaker, A5 is hard to beat.


2. Then I dropped in the vintage audio shop where I auditioned full 3 way Western Electric system valued at 300k$ two years ago.

The one that I auditioned had been sold.

But I had listeded to JBL Hartzfield early version(three way) in excellent condition.

It really sounds warm an moving.

I got tempted to pull the trigger for JBL at 35k$.


Then I had listened to Altec A800 early version in pristine condition.

I got blown away by the sound driven by Altec 1520 T vacuum amplifier.

It sounds natural with effortless dynamics and good extensiion on both treble and bass.

It sounds excellent for both vocal and orchestral music.


I had bought Altec A7 speakers located in Vancouver, Canada two months ago at 1000 CDN(800 USD) for pair of speakers.

I expect to pick it up after being back to Washinton State next week.

But I am not sure whether Altec A7 will sound as good as Altec A800.


With Lansche 4.1 still working fine, I may not need to add Magico A5.

But I am tempted to add Altec A800 at reasonable price in addition to Altec A7.

I thought I would go back to the opening post to see how this long thread got started. Magico cones in sealed box verses JBL and Altec horns.

Modern versus vintage speakers: “fast and clean” versus “ natural with effortless dynamics and good extensiion on both treble and bass” and “It sounds excellent for both vocal and orchestral music.”

That sounds about right. Different values with different results.

 

[morricab]

I thought I would go back to the opening post to see how this long thread got started. Magico cones in sealed box verses JBL and Altec horns.

Modern versus vintage speakers: “fast and clean” versus “ natural with effortless dynamics and good extensiion on both treble and bass” and “It sounds excellent for both vocal and orchestral music.”

That sounds about right. Different values with different results.

Would you consider Magicos "fast" compared to JBL or Altec horns? I would say more truncated than fast.

 

[MarcelNL]

much of the issues I have with modern speaker designs is that they 'compress' dynamics, therefore sound more dynamic but when you uncompress that part fof music you hear more details and music but it appears less dynamic. Easy tp get lost when doing a design.

We played with the filters on the altec/philips/JBL system while we were at it and that effect was illustrated once more to me.

 

[Salectric]

My complaints about modern speakers are that most of them:

(1) have unnatural bass. With many the bass is too lean in the upper bass and lower midrange, not warm enough, which contributes to a sense of restrained dynamics;. With other modern speakers, the bass has an unnatural boom and thumpy coloration.

(2) are too bright which sounds hyped and artificial to my ears; and

(3) have precisely located “spot-lit” images which also sounds artificial and quite different from what I hear with live music.

 

[bonzo75]

My complaints about modern speakers are that most of them:

(1) have unnatural bass. With many the bass is too lean in the upper bass and lower midrange, not warm enough, which contributes to a sense of restrained dynamics;. With other modern speakers, the bass has an unnatural boom and thumpy coloration.

(2) are too bright which sounds hyped and artificial to my ears; and

(3) have precisely located “spot-lit” images which also sounds artificial and quite different from what I hear with live music.

1 is the most common, coupled with unnatural tone.

The other issue is there seems to be awful mismatches between top half and bottom half drivers, so there is no appropriate amp on modern inefficient speakers. That's why audiophiles put some valve to roll off the top end and not make it bright, and in the process end up underdriving the woofers.

It then becomes a case of adding one bandaid on top of another to fix issues that arise from earbleeds from the previous bandaid applied. Until, the whole thing looks and sounds like this so you don't know what's in the recording.

 

[the sound of Tao]

the sound of Tao said:
modern speakers are perhaps designed for a more immediate wow and sonic weighted rather than musical weighted impression whereas vintage speakers were designed for music and appreciation.

My original intent probably could have been better framed with saying that its not just that the boxes have changed but culture has changed and we are changed by that in ways.

Sure we still love music and are drawn to it (perhaps also as an environmental therapy). The shift from the traditional and often more human scale of a more dominantly acoustic based music culture has been supplanted by more and more electric/electronic music with likely more subsonics and infrasonics and which often operates in a larger than life musical framework.

It’s a noisier busier world full of noisy reflections and less and less simple human reflection. What we may want (or expect) from music or have become adapted to might include greater or more overt and synthetic sonic sensations to create better masking and more complex layers of noise because that is what we are more surrounded by in an urban environment rather than more intimate scales and more natural environments and more harmonised to natural sounds.

It is conjecture sure but I don’t think the boxes changed on their own. The boxes of today could also be responding to who we as a culture may have become. Certainly not (from my perspective) ideal.

 

[Robh3606]

Purely conjecture but maybe contemporary patterns of short attention spans and an ever growing expectation of greater sensation might be the reason modern speakers are perhaps designed for a more immediate wow and sonic weighted rather than musical weighted impression and maybe that is what contemporary audio has become tilted to whereas vintage speakers were designed for cultures exposed to slower paces and more used to slower terms of digestion of experience and a different type or expectation about music and appreciation. Like I said though, just conjecture.

Hello SOT

I don't know back in the late 50's and early 60's when stereo was being born "High Fidelity" was the name of the game. Basically Fidelity to the source and they had their own generation of "demo" records at the time. I don't think things have really changed all that much except maybe the program material chosen for the demo's.

When I go to a show I bring my own music. Demo music in most cases is not what I would normally listen to some of it contrived for a wow factor.

As far as modern speaker designed for a wow factor?? I hope not and would like to believe they stick to the original meaning of High Fidelity.

I want a neutral speaker not something "voiced" to what someone else thinks sounds best.

Rob

 

[PeterA]

Would you consider Magicos "fast" compared to JBL or Altec horns? I would say more truncated than fast.

No not really Brad. I used to think magicos were fast. And I have read that people think they are fast, so I was basically agreeing with the OP in that sense. Having lived with truly dynamic open sounding horns now for a couple of years, my perspective has changed.

I’m not sure I would describe them as truncated though. I think the OP was reaching for vast generalizations based on that one limited comparison and in that context I agree with his comments.

sometimes threads get off track, so I wanted to reread the opening post to put recent pages in context.

 

[Ron Resnick]

1 is the most common, coupled with unnatural tone.

The other issue is there seems to be awful mismatches between top half and bottom half drivers, so there is no appropriate amp on modern inefficient speakers. That's why audiophiles put some valve to roll off the top end and not make it bright, and in the process end up underdriving the woofers.

It then becomes a case of adding one bandaid on top of another to fix issues that arise from earbleeds from the previous bandaid applied. Until, the whole thing looks and sounds like this so you don't know what's in the recording.

I see hear mere personal preference for certain sonic attributes satisfied by speakers which provide those attributes.

Try 96dB sensitive Goebel Divin Majestics driven by SETs.

 

[bonzo75]

I see hear mere personal preference for certain sonic attributes satisfied by speakers which provide those attributes.

Try 96dB sensitive Goebel Divin Majestics driven by SETs.

I have not said anything against those as I haven't heard them with SETs outside of Munich. It might be they share same characteristics as vintage speakers, but there are a lot of horns for you to try to know the similarities. I think it is quite apparent from above discussions that when people differentiate modern speakers they are referring to the more commonly available ones, like Magico, Wilson, Raidho, Focal, etc...

There was the small Gobbel here in London with CH electronics that got replaced by the Stenheim Alumine 2 and latter is much better, and as you know Howie moved to AN-E with SETs from the Divins

 

[MarcelNL]

goebel, what comes after utra high end;
Hyper high end?
Extreme High End?

Essentially a D' Appolito setup with what seems a passive radiatior?

I'll give them a conscious listen next time, for now the superlatives used on the site makes me shive, sorry to say but the all important words emotion and music seem lacking.
(well music is there once, but only to group the details of the sounds within it in an easy way)

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