NORTH AMERICAN PUBLIC DEBUT OF TECHDAS AIR FORCE ZERO AND WILSON AUDIO MASTER CHRONOSONIC/SUBSONIC

[spiritofmusic]

Jack and Steve, the British SOH thing still doesn't register w you guys.

B..x.t is nearly 3 years in, we have to be sarcastic to maintain any semblance of sanity.

I do find it fascinating that a $400k tt doesn't have a dedicated integrated stand as standard, when SOTA designs of their day did eg Rockport Sirius, Continuum Caliburn, and maybe Apolyt and Vyger today. To be told the stand is not that critical, and the Artesania does the job, is fascinating.

I cannot quite get my head around air-coupled multiple nested platters, but it looks like a fascinating concept.

I just struggle to see where the AF0 has decisive engineering advantages over the Vyger or Apolyt, but Microstrip has alluded to sheer mass and damping being two .

I would truly like to know where AF0 definitively beats the other hugely overegineered tts like Vyger and Apolyt and AS2000 on the market, may never come to light.

But you guys need to not take skeptical comments as if we're insulting the good name of the designer.

As I said once, if we're all meant to revere gear in hushed tones, let's shut WBF down and all switch to reading Audio Exotics Forum.

 

[Steve Williams]

Marc

I struggle as well that you and others here have had the most to say about the Zero yet none of you have heard it.

I haven’t heard it either. Yet almost all of you are critical of the Artesania stand because it doesn’t have enough bling rather than how it performs.

 

[jeff1225]

40 years of improvements in CAD and Machining mean nothing Jeff?

They absolutely mean something in terms of the beauty of this functional art. In regards to the sound, well we'll just have to wait for the reports. I think the performance of the SME 3012R on members systems vs the Graham, SAT and Axios has not demonstrated that CAD and modern machining has advanced the fidelity of tone arms.

 

[JackD201]

A solid stand is all one needs for mass tables like this one Marc. If I were to get one I'd still go with a Maxxum but with a solid top shelf. I have nothing against Artesania but if I had the dosh, I sure would want some visual continuity. David came up with a rack for the AS, maybe it is the best for it, it doesn't mean that all AS' are crap if they aren't on them. AS users just follow David's recommendations to be safe. His rack would also probably work very well with not just the AF0 but any table that needs to be absolutely stable not just for sonics but safety as well. For that kind of money, I want to choose my own rack not the other way around unless the suspension is in the rack itself. In the case of the Zero, it isn't.

 

[spiritofmusic]

And we're not likely to hear it, are we Steve. It's not exactly likely to be sent to the UK. If it was, and I refused to listen to it, and criticised, I'd get yr comment. And I'm not criticising it, I'm just commenting on aspects of what we know. Which of course is v little, typical of roll outs of bleeding edge designs of anything. But I think we knew more about Veyron when it was first shown.

 

[JackD201]

They absolutely mean something in terms of the beauty of this functional art. In regards to the sound, well we'll just have to wait for the reports. I think the performance of the SME 3012R on members systems vs the Graham, SAT and Axios has not demonstrated that CAD and modern machining has advanced the fidelity of tone arms.

That's quite a leap my friend. We aren't talking about tone arms. We're talking about heavy platters balancing on microns of air.

 

[PeterA]

You have explained nothing, except for perhaps sour grapes .
On this logic, Project and Crossley have disrupted analog more.

All Technics are doing is resurrecting turntable technology they dumped 30 years ago. Have they even managed to better the sq of the sp10 mk3 ?

Tech Das already the V in the Technics price range which has trickle down Tech Das technology. Which one of these sounds better?

This is an interesting question: TechDAS V or the new Technics DD? What is the price difference, and has anyone compared them to say the SME Model 10 or Brinkmann Bardo?

Given the sales numbers and cost of quality manufacturing small quantities, can a really good turntable with advanced technology be made for $5-10K? How much would a scaled down version of a simple but beautifully executed design like the AS2000 really cost if it had a mass produced high quality motor, and weighed say, 50lbs instead of 500?

I agree with Keith's hope that some great designer will someday release a very simple, well executed design that is affordable. Perhaps the a bigger challenge than making a cost no object super table. We haven't seen it, or at least I'm not aware of it. Is that because it can't be done and still be profitable? An SME 10 can be sold for less than $10K and be profitable, but that is from a relatively large company that sells a lot of turntables, and many don't like the sound anyway.

Perhaps this is the kind of discussion that will simply not take place on What's Best Forum. A friend just told me that Stereophile's subscribers have an average system cost of something like $27K. A turntable would have to be less than $5K in such a system. That is not what this forum is about. This forum seems increasingly about products like the AF0 and the AS2000, at least for the populare turntable discussions. And that is fine. Forums are fluid and evolve in the directions that their members take them.

Oh, it's a fascinating hobby.

 

[JackD201]

Hi Peter, there ARE many discussions on great affordable tables here on WBF. I just recently had a fun discussion with Bob Learner on the new Technics decks for one.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, I'm not an advocate for Vyger as an owner who's biased. At £55k I can't afford it, it would not work in my room, it would show up the rest of my system. But I know that in every reasonable respect it is bleeding edge. Now if we're saying bleeding edge really is 100kg plus nested platters etc, fine. But Vyger really does push a lot of engineering to the edge. It also supports a massive platter on microns of air, plus it's other axis of air isolation, and an air arm.

And £55k, to incl arm, is quite the bargain in the high end, and remains a planned affordability for most here if a meticulous overperforming tt was their be all and end all.

I don't know a single person who could even think of affording AF0. This is not a statement borne of envy, it's a simple comment on the state of economics in 2019.

So, is more detailed info on AF0 engineering going to see the light of day? It would be instructive if so to compare facets of it versus the most advanced tt I've seen and heard in the flesh ie the Vyger.

 

[PeterA]

Ron, noone is picking the AF0 over the Apolyt because it's somehow less imposing, integrated stand or no integrated stand.

That may or may not be true, Marc, but this is a discussion forum in which we are free to discuss, speculate, imagine and opine.

 

[jeff1225]

That's quite a leap my friend. We aren't talking about tone arms. We're talking about heavy platters balancing on microns of air.

CAD and modern machining techniques haven't advanced one link of the playback chain but maybe they'll advance the turntable with AF0. We'll have to see.

I do know that when people visit DDK's and Tang's systems they leave raving about the EMT 927 and the American Sound tables; 40+ year old turntables.

 

[PeterA]

Completely agree Steve, we have learned so much from this guy's system on the differences between WAMM, vox Olympian, kronos / AS / Ascona (or whatever tables he has, and the various phonos).

Did we hear what ddk thinks of the sound of those two systems? Ked, can you point me in the direction of where this owner writes about his two systems? I remember some photos, but not many comments about sound.

 

[PeterA]

Two different systems in different rooms. One WAMM and one vox Olympian. Did you not read the reports from DDK, Doshi and Tang's tonearm guy who have been in there praising the WAMM? Or from the owner himself?

I missed those comments too. Can you share a link?

 

[bonzo75]

I missed those comments too. Can you share a link?

Actually no, the point I was making is that no one posted or wrote about it

 

[JackD201]

Hi Jeff

Tables are wonderful beasts. Each has its sound and those sounds will resonate with certain people. I for one appreciate the EMTs, the 301 GBs and 401s, well set up Linns, then there's the exotics like the Teragakis, the self centering Nak. One could build wonderful systems around any of these. There is the rub then. System context matters. If my fave carts were SPUs you can bet your bottom dollar the 3012 would be up there on my list. Not because it has been hyped here but simply because they are wonderful together. I wouldn't put an SPU on a short, low mass arm.

We come back to preferences.

The thing is and Nishikawa-san said this years ago, his ultimate goal is to make a colorless table. There's a difference between making one that scrubs color away by being trannsient heavy and taking an approach that lets information through leaving mostly what's on the LP. We've all come across tables that do the former. We've also come across those that have such a strong sound of their own, the signature is unmistakable. Like my love for the TOTL FM Acoustics pre which has its own distinct color, I have no problem with that for as long as it is a color that I like. For those that are after a particular tone for whatever reason, this table might not be for them. That's just the way it is. I do not see someone in love with his TD124 swooning over the sound of a TD. It's not what he's come to love. That's just the way it is. Now for those that want to dive deeper into the recordings, like me, this just may be the ticket.

That said, I do not listen that way all the time and I am in the process of building an all Lamm second system with a vintage source for more casual enjoyment. There's no right or wrong only what tools get the job done. My LP2.1 just arrived and that will go with my L2 Ref and ML1.1s whose new set of tubes just arrived too.

 

[Steve Williams]

Actually no, the point I was making is that no one posted or wrote about it

are you implying that "no comments" is tantamount to "negative comments"

 

[PeterA]

Actually no, the point I was making is that no one posted or wrote about it

That was my point too, LOL. The photos were pretty interesting though.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I'm not a petrolhead, despite owning a classic car, but I loved Top Gear/The Grand Tour for all the ABs done on so many top supercars, the lack of reverence to reputations, and the pretty honest appraisals, good, bad and terrible, of stuff we'd aspire to own.

At least Astons and Ferraris and Pagondas and Lamborghinis were put thru their paces, often up against each other, and you got a reasonable idea of comparative performance.

Uber end audio? No chance.

AF0 will not play off against AS2000, Apolyt or Vyger. There might be one or two reviews of AF0, even just on it's own.

If these were exotic car marques, AF0 would be laid on for a whole number of photo shoots, l/t ownership narratives, maybe even a grand shoot out.

Nope, all we'll likely get is the odd photo from a system somewhere, some discussion on it's technical prowess. And comments from the sidelines (yep, that's incl me).

Can those in the know confirm I'm wrong. That a lot more will be revealed or there'll be definitive reviews and maybe even an A/B or two?

 

[PeterA]

are you implying that "no comments" is tantamount to "negative comments"

My impression is that this owner is not an active participant on this or any other audio forum. So, I really wonder if he will comment on the differences he hears between his two AS2000 and the AF0. You posted that his comments will be definitive. It's not clear to me that he will comment, and if he does, it will be simply a nice data point. We have two others from Rockitman and Tango about their AF1s and AS2000s.

 

[Steve Williams]

My impression is that this owner is not an active participant on this or any other audio forum. So, I really wonder if he will comment on the differences he hears between his two AS2000 and the AF0. You posted that his comments will be definitive. It's not clear to me that he will comment, and if he does, it will be simply a nice data point. We have two others from Rockitman and Tango about their AF1s and AS2000s.

very true but we are talking AF0 and AS 2000 so no real datapoint yet