QSA : My take on their expensive products

[sparkie]

Your sentiment is absolutely understandable.
I tried both QSA and QSA-Lanedri products only because they had a return policy, and let my ears decide if it’s worth it.
See my review of the cables. I had the same concerns.

I look at it from a scientific point of view. Because I see no relative measurements/comparisons demonstrated. Especially on what I call a macro device (a device that easily changed that everything counts on it. Power cords speaker cords, etc ) where comparison tests can be performed by anyone.

I make, design, re-design, and modify some studio audio devices. So I know what would be relative in a change in performance. A fuse wouldn't change the performance for the better unless there was an instantaneous peak delivery issue which only occurs if the wrong fuse type is installed in the first place.

Edit: Where is the thread about their cables? I'm interested what you said about them.

 

[keithc]

I look at it from a scientific point of view. Because I see no relative measurements/comparisons demonstrated. Especially on what I call a macro device (a device that easily changed that everything counts on it. Power cords speaker cords, etc ) where comparison tests can be performed by anyone.

I make, design, re-design, and modify some studio audio devices. So I know what would be relative in a change in performance. A fuse wouldn't change the performance for the better unless there was an instantaneous peak delivery issue which only occurs if the wrong fuse type is installed in the first place.

Edit: Where is the thread about their cables? I'm interested what you said about them.

QSA LANEDRI Series

Hi Steven, Very glad yo see that there is a QSA Forum on WBF. Congratulations! https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/qsa-my-take-on-their-expensive-products.33833/ I think I wrote the first QSA review on WBF, back in 2012. :D...

www.whatsbestforum.com

My review was #518.

All that matters is your own enjoyment of your system, and if that individual wants to believe one thing or another, that's great. If you prefer scientific principals, statistically justified delta, and psychoacoustic modeling that the delta = better sound, that's fine -- and I get it. But then I feel your argument would apply to not only QSA, but the majority of digital playback, cables, tweaks, isolation, etc., as not having any measurable delta.

Personally, I can't measure a lot of things. Doesn't mean it's not there. Tons of smart, highly successful and heavily titled folks on these forums. To each to their own.

 

[sparkie]

Personally, I can't measure a lot of things. Doesn't mean it's not there. Tons of smart, highly successful and heavily titled folks on these forums. To each to their own.

I have to admit the regular IEC cord is weak sauce, But looking at their cord looks like they are addressing the common issues associated with unbalanced and some balanced interconnects. Because if you incorporate the fix in the unit it does not currently pass UL compliance. I know because I had something rejected after putting in that circuit that I put into the power supply of my unlisted studio gear I build from time to time.

 

[kennyb123]

I look at it from a scientific point of view. Because I see no relative measurements/comparisons demonstrated.

Science tells us that conclusions can’t be drawn from the lack of evidence. But with these products, there actually exists an abundance of evidence - it’s evidence that’s been gathered from observation.

Observe: “To note, record, or attend to a result, occurrence, or phenomenon. Though we typically think of observations as having been made ‘with our own eyes,’ in science, observations may be made directly (by seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting, or smelling) or indirectly using tools.“ Source is Berkeley University.

Evidence: “Test results and/or observations that may either help support or help refute a scientific idea.“ Source also Berkeley University.

One of the strangest ironies of audio is that many who claim they want to look at things scientifically tend to ignore or discount observations. Observation is an essential part of science. It’s a really good sign that you expressed interest in reading about what keithc observed. I’ve posted observations in that thread too, as have many others who are even better at expressing what they observed.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

First on the power cable and then add to other components

In my experience never.

 

[highstream]

I look at it from a scientific point of view. Because I see no relative measurements/comparisons demonstrated. Especially on what I call a macro device (a device that easily changed that everything counts on it. Power cords speaker cords, etc ) where comparison tests can be performed by anyone.

I make, design, re-design, and modify some studio audio devices. So I know what would be relative in a change in performance. A fuse wouldn't change the performance for the better unless there was an instantaneous peak delivery issue which only occurs if the wrong fuse type is installed in the first place.

Edit: Where is the thread about their cables? I'm interested what you said about them.

I can think off hand of no field or endeavor in life where beyond the strictly physical quality is wholly measurable by instrumentation or data. In audio, even double-blind study attempts have a subjective element at core. What is measurable, so to speak, is how one likes a piece of equipment, that is, how it jibes tonally and in pitch with their listening tastes (leaving aside other factors, since if one doesn’t enjoy it, or can’t afford it, it doesn’t matter). It’s just like most everything else in life (giving examples and qualifications to that general statement goes beyond the scope of the this thread’s topic).

 

[jasond]

I also wonder how much of a difference there is between QSA and the Synergistic Research Master or new Pink fuse?

 

[sparkie]

I can think off hand of no field or endeavor in life where beyond the strictly physical quality is wholly measurable by instrumentation or data. In audio, even double-blind study attempts have a subjective element at core. What is measurable, so to speak, is how one likes a piece of equipment, that is, how it jibes tonally and in pitch with their listening tastes (leaving aside other factors, since if one doesn’t enjoy it, or can’t afford it, it doesn’t matter). It’s just like most everything else in life (giving examples and qualifications to that general statement goes beyond the scope of the this thread’s topic).

There is only a few things you can address by inserting a circuit on a power cord. Because a lot of people address what could be wrong with power, but can not address the ground side problems with this sector's ground on the RCA connections. If you do in the appliance, the it fails UL standards. But their standards can be changed in due time. In pro audio gear, the xlr output pin1 is through a resistor to ground instead of directly connected. So the input of the next stage gnd does not cause a loop when connected. Unfortunately, only the studio sector has been able to take advantage of this when they buy my products or a dozen or so other boutique pro audio products. But we can't sell them in stores because they want it to be UL listed and it can't be listed.

So, that is my take on the power cord with the mystery circuit. They basically figured out what other people did, and put it into a power cord.

And your mileage, or results might vary depending on the system setup and if the issue is address in another way or not.

 

[Kingrex]

There is only a few things you can address by inserting a circuit on a power cord. Because a lot of people address what could be wrong with power, but can not address the ground side problems with this sector's ground on the RCA connections. If you do in the appliance, the it fails UL standards. But their standards can be changed in due time. In pro audio gear, the xlr output pin1 is through a resistor to ground instead of directly connected. So the input of the next stage gnd does not cause a loop when connected. Unfortunately, only the studio sector has been able to take advantage of this when they buy my products or a dozen or so other boutique pro audio products. But we can't sell them in stores because they want it to be UL listed and it can't be listed.

So, that is my take on the power cord with the mystery circuit. They basically figured out what other people did, and put it into a power cord.

And your mileage, or results might vary depending on the system setup and if the issue is address in another way or not.

What ground side problems are you talking about. Poorly designed audio gear or the electrical wiring at your house? Your house wiring can be made right. Poorly designed equipment may be another question.

 

[Kingrex]

Has anyone compared a Ethernet Jitter from QSA to the new CAD Ethernet filter?

 

[sparkie]

What ground side problems are you talking about. Poorly designed audio gear or the electrical wiring at your house? Your house wiring can be made right. Poorly designed equipment may be another question.

Unbalanced audio always adds its power supply noise to the signal. Which is the unavoidable in its design. When DC gnd is linked to GNd from the outlet, now you making pathways that power supply noise to sum from several power supplies.

 

[Kingrex]

Unbalanced audio always adds its power supply noise to the signal. Which is the unavoidable in its design. When DC gnd is linked to GNd from the outlet, now you making pathways that power supply noise to sum from several power supplies.

So what are you saying here.

So, that is my take on the power cord with the mystery circuit. They basically figured out what other people did, and put it into a power cord.

Are you talking about a cord with 2 back to back diodes to break the ground. Like a HumX. These work with equipment that have internal ground issues. They are unnecessary on well designed equipment. My Audion 845 amp had bad ground issues. Eventually the power transformer had to be replaced as it was injecting noise into the signal.

These devices in my mind are band aids. But they do work if one does not want to spend thousands upon thousands to maybe have a internal ground issues to a piece of equipment fixed. Which may never happen, even after spending the money.

 

[highstream]

@sparkle, you're off topic. If you wish to discuss grounding issues or the validity of aftermarket fuses, create your own topics if you can't find the appropriate ones. If you wish to discuss measurement, there is the Audio Sciences Review thread on WBF. This one is about QSA products.

 

[ssfas]

Science tells us that conclusions can’t be drawn from the lack of evidence. But with these products, there actually exists an abundance of evidence - it’s evidence that’s been gathered from observation.

Observe: “To note, record, or attend to a result, occurrence, or phenomenon. Though we typically think of observations as having been made ‘with our own eyes,’ in science, observations may be made directly (by seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting, or smelling) or indirectly using tools.“ Source is Berkeley University.

Evidence: “Test results and/or observations that may either help support or help refute a scientific idea.“ Source also Berkeley University.

One of the strangest ironies of audio is that many who claim they want to look at things scientifically tend to ignore or discount observations. Observation is an essential part of science. It’s a really good sign that you expressed interest in reading about what keithc observed. I’ve posted observations in that thread too, as have many others who are even better at expressing what they observed.

it is very easy to both measure and observe.

I have Belden 5T00UP speaker cables. A 2.5m pair costs $104. I have a 5 m pair that cost $141. The QSA rebranded Gamma Infinity is physically exactly the same product, but with the claimed QSA treatment. The QSA website says the treatment turns the cables into a superconductor. Belden publish all their cable measurements online and QSA could have a video online showing the measurements of their cable in minutes. We would like to see resistance, inductance and capacitance.

It is long-established science that you cannot turn copper into a superconductor, and these are copper cables. Most super conductors exist close to absolute zero, another reason to be doubtful.

A blind A/B test would also be incredibly easy given most amplifiers (mine included) have two pairs of speaker outputs. As they are physically identical, keeping the test blind is easy.

The only practical difficulty is that to buy the cables would incur $1200 of sales tax and duty that would not be recoverable, for $104 cables. I would also have to trust QSA to refund my $6000, which I would not do given they are in another country.

I would happily host such a listening session to the many members in the London area.

 

[kennyb123]

The QSA website says the treatment turns the cables into a superconductor.

Can you share a link to this? I suspect this was marketing-speak and not meant to be taken literally. It might have also resulted from an inaccurate translation to English. Regardless, that’s a red herring. What should matter far more is that so many people have reported positive findings from using QSA-treated products.

I initially doubted the claims so I made a very reasonable investment in a QSA Power Jitter. I purchased this from Tweek Geek because they offered a 30 day money back on this. I ended up buying a second one and then went on to purchasing a number of QSA-Lanedri products also with a 30 day return policy. None of them went back.

I really don’t understand why someone would choose to reach conclusions without trying the product themselves.

 

[ssfas]

Can you share a link to this? I suspect this was marketing-speak and not meant to be taken literally. It might have also resulted from an inaccurate translation to English. Regardless, that’s a red herring. What should matter far more is that so many people have reported positive findings from using QSA-treated products.

I initially doubted the claims so I made a very reasonable investment in a QSA Power Jitter. I purchased this from Tweek Geek because they offered a 30 day money back on this. I ended up buying a second one and then went on to purchasing a number of QSA-Lanedri products also with a 30 day return policy. None of them went back.

I really don’t understand why someone would choose to reach conclusions without trying the product themselves.

It's on the QSA Lanedri website, put there by Anas Lanedri. If MMA is such a genius process, why lie about what it does?

Tsang has been posting this stuff on the internet for years - He's posted lots of pictures of alleged measurements of reduced resistance on all sorts of things. Claims reduced resistance of a rice cooker by 81%.

I haven't reached any conclusions. I'm suggesting:
1) Measure the cables as Tsang did with other products
2) Do blind tests with the base cable.

You bought a QSA product from a local supplier in the USA. The return cost would have been postage. To try the product I would have to pay 20% import taxes. As the base product costs $104 and the import taxes on the QSA fried version would be $1,200, that a lot of money to try a $104 cable.

There are many products that have been enhanced and can be directly compared. I bought one last week, the Whest Two.2 Discrete, which is an improved version of the Whest Two.2.

I've no issue with expensive products, when the expense is justified, and I own some. Here a cheap base product is being fried for a few minutes with a little box and the price inflated x 60. Surely it's worth comparing to the base product?

 

[flkin]

..
You bought a QSA product from a local supplier in the USA. The return cost would have been postage. To try the product I would have to pay 20% import taxes. As the base product costs $104 and the import taxes on the QSA fried version would be $1,200, that a lot of money to try a $104 cable.
..

Maybe easier to simply visit a shop selling QSAL cables and ask to listen to them in comparison to something else they had in the shop.

If you did hear a substantial difference would you buy it or is this just to satisfy your curiosity?

 

[sparkie]

So what are you saying here.

a cap and a low value resistor in series between chassis ground and the power cord's green wire will do the same thing regardless if its built into the unit or not. But the only way to integrate it so that the unit passes UL is to put it in a power cord.

 

[ssfas]

Maybe easier to simply visit a shop selling QSAL cables and ask to listen to them in comparison to something else they had in the shop.

If you did hear a substantial difference would you buy it or is this just to satisfy your curiosity?

QSAL aren’t sold through shops. They are sold from Belgium, QSAL do not pay the import tax, you have to pay it direct to Customs to get clearance and delivery. If you return the cables, you don’t get an automatic refund.

Many companies arrange for their products to be “duty paid”, such as those sold from Singapore. It appears QSAL are not duty paid:


There are plenty of shops here that will loan cables and you can listen to them at home and make up your mind before buying. So you can compare to your own cables in your system with no sale pressure.

My speakers are wired with Belden 5T00UP. It is physically the same as Gamma Infinity. Mine cost $149 delivered, the QSAL would cost $7,200 delivered. The first thing would be to compare the two cables, then decide if the QSAL are worth their price.

The most expensive speaker cables I’ve tried at home cost £16,000 - about $20,000. A manufacturer brought them here when he came to deliver an amplifier. I bought the amplifier, but not the speaker cables. They were remarkably transparent. Other people might buy them, but not me. They were 6 m long made of multi-strand solid silver (all strands different thicknesses) and about an inch thick. Much of the price was the cost of the silver.

The irony is that the 5T00UP is already an extremely very low resistance 10awg cable. Speaker cable signals arrive in nanoseconds. These cables are designed to be used in very long runs up to say 100m, e.g. for AV systems. So they can be used in unequal lengths quite happily. So I bought 5m and 2m cables and a spare 5m cable just in case (cost $70). Needless to say, using unequal lengths makes no audible difference.

 

[ssfas]

Maybe easier to simply visit a shop selling QSAL cables and ask to listen to them in comparison to something else they had in the shop.

If you did hear a substantial difference would you buy it or is this just to satisfy your curiosity?

Incidentally, I do use solid silver interconnect cables. Mr Tsang is not a metallurgist. The cables I use are based on metallurgy and published data.

The cables aren't very expensive. They are very well made and I'm perfectly happy with them.
https://www.missinglinkcables.co.uk/cable-research

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There is a company in the USA doing very similar cables, using similar if not exactly the same cryo-treated silver. More expensive, but not by much.

Revelation Audio Labs: technical design

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Revelation Audio Labs: analog cables

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