Subs for big horns?

[Thetiminator]

Can anyone recommend, or is there such a thing, as a subwoofer (or pair of subs) that can keep up with the lightening fast bass of big horns?

I don’t need anything too subsonic, just to fill the 30-60hz range, my speakers tail off quickly below 45hz.

Budget - pretty flexible but in or around the $15k ballpark and I’m happy to buy ex dem or mint used. Thanks in advance.

 

[Folsom]

There is nothing out there that will keep up with GR-Reseach's OB servo subs, with the amp modded by me. People have replaced JL subs with them, etc.

 

[ddk]

Can anyone recommend, or is there such a thing, as a subwoofer (or pair of subs) that can keep up with the lightening fast bass of big horns?

I don’t need anything too subsonic, just to fill the 30-60hz range, my speakers tail off quickly below 45hz.

Budget - pretty flexible but in or around the $15k ballpark and I’m happy to buy ex dem or mint used. Thanks in advance.

Which horns?

david

 

[Thetiminator]

Living Voice Air Partners

 

[ddk]

Living Voice Air Partners

Cool! You gotta look at vintage subs with light paper drivers if you want to match the Vitavox's speed and tone. I assume you're using tubes with them so you need to use the same type of amplifier to achieve proper coherence. Take a look at my system I use vintage JBLs in my system and if you read visitors comments they're completely integrated with the main speakers. They're certainly within your budget as are some other ones including the cost of decent amps and crossover. You can go the custom route too if know a competent designer to make them for you. Don't recommend any active ones specially ones with digital plate amps for your speakers.

david

 

[Solypsa]

If you have an abundance of room, consider a multiple driver h baffle ( or quasi AMT as some call it) open baffle topology.

 

[Folsom]

If you have an abundance of room, consider a multiple driver h baffle ( or quasi AMT as some call it) open baffle topology.

Precisely what I suggested. I haven't had trouble integrating subs based on any particular rules about cone weight or plate amps. Some subs are good, others are not. Some are faster, others are slower.

But I do know DDK has a fair bit of experience with this, I have no doubt his method is a path to something good - whether or not it is the only one.

 

[ddk]

Precisely what I suggested. I haven't had trouble integrating subs based on any particular rules about cone weight or plate amps. Some subs are good, others are not. Some are faster, others are slower.

But I do know DDK has a fair bit of experience with this, I have no doubt his method is a path to something good - whether or not it is the only one.

It depends on what you're trying to match Folsom. The Air Partners are early Kevin Scott pre Vox Olympian attempts at recreating the Vitavox sound as a standalone speaker instead of a corner horn, the main driver compliment was reproduction S2 & AK151 drivers which were pretty close to the original, the weak component was the reproduction RH-330 horn that rang badly. Light vintage paper cone drivers don't travel much are very fast and articulate, something that heavy modern cones with long travel can't really match. Various topologies of SS and Tube amplification reproduce bass very differently, it's much easier to integrate like amps in a system. I'd make a different recommendation if he was using a modern dynamic or panel speaker with SS amps.

david

 

[Thetiminator]

Thanks for your advice guys. My room (not finished still building at the mo) isn’t huge, 7.5m x 6.5m.....
Also, I need a suitable amp, my system at the minute (Boulder 1012, musical Fidelity Titans, Revel Salon 2) will be relegated to the family room.
I’ve been advised that i need an ultra quiet low power amp as noise could be an issue with the LV’s being so efficient. Could anyone offer any suggestions? A dealer friend of mine recommends Tron amps as he says they’re the quietest he’s ever come across.....

 

[Zero000]

The first (and only) time I heard Air Partners they blew my mind. Different, to say the least It's just the way the bass emanates from that huge mouth. Takes some acclimatisation and getting used to I am sure.

Very, very different from Keith's current speakers like Olympians and certainly nowhere near the OBX etc.

Kind of feel large coned OB type woofers would be the way to go, as hinted at above.

I take it you have heard them (the Air Partners)?

 

[Thetiminator]

Oh yes I bought them from a friend so many times. But I’ve never heard them via a low powered valve amp, he was using big Krells so I’m sure I haven’t heard the best of them.
The top and mids are like nothing I’ve ever heard, the bass is superb too but definitely on the light side, but this could be a mismatch with the amp. Also he had them pulled out into the room and maybe pushed into the corner more may add that bit if weight they’re missing...

 

[morricab]

Oh yes I bought them from a friend so many times. But I’ve never heard them via a low powered valve amp, he was using big Krells so I’m sure I haven’t heard the best of them.
The top and mids are like nothing I’ve ever heard, the bass is superb too but definitely on the light side, but this could be a mismatch with the amp. Also he had them pulled out into the room and maybe pushed into the corner more may add that bit if weight they’re missing...

Yes, you don't want high damping factor amplification as a back loaded horn is already well damped. That will definitely thin out the bass. Also moving them closer to a wall will help.

For a sub, why not Avantgarde short horn subs? They will match the speed by virtue of being horn loaded.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Sure I can make one built to order , whats the sensitivity of your horns ?
For the 30 - 60 hz range there are plenty of papercone designs .
For the real deal 20 hz and up paper is not up to it imo, then you need different membrane material.
If you buy a passive paperunit/sub look at the sensitivity match with your main speaker , a couple of db above them will be better sounding then if they play below the main FR

 

[Thetiminator]

Hi AA
They’re 105db and I’m more than happy at 30hz and up, I’ve always found that the speakers I enjoy most cut off at 30-35hz.
My Revels go down to the low 20’s in room and I use the bass slope switch to cut that back.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Then my final solution would require at least 2 stacks of 3 woofers given that the figures released by speakermanufacturers are mosty very optimistic .
But I only work with HPL no wood or mdf so the total cost would probably exceed 15 K usd a bit .

I look into what paperwoofer you could use , if you want to built it your self , if you want to buy of the market , buy 2 passive subwoofers with at least a 105 db eff each a 15 incher or something like that.
I don't know what filter they use , if they use a first order with for example a low value /mH coil in series then the sub will support your lower mid as well

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi,

I am sure that Kevin @ definitive could make you some matching subs for these. I would go this route since he has some Air Partners in now and has been experimenting recently. He also has a conversion to add a supertweeter onto a top mounted bracket a bit like the Vox.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi,

I am sure that Kevin @ definitive could make you some matching subs for these. I would go this route since he has some Air Partners in now and has been experimenting recently. He also has a conversion to add a supertweeter onto a top mounted bracket a bit like the Vox.

Just realised he has Air Scouts in at moment not Partner but sure he can help you...

 

[andromedaaudio]

I ve been looking through a lot of pro audio paper units, the highest I could find was a Dayton 15 incher with 102 db eff , you need at least 2 of these per speaker and know how to connect them.

Point I want to make is that the eff matching is key in the whole story if you wanna go passive , If you go active you could just turn the amp up to reach the same sound level

 

[Thetiminator]

Kevin did do a matching horn subwoofer for the Air Partners but they were huge. Perhaps 8x4x4ft so essentially you have an entire wall of horns......I don’t really want to go there ideally, not the prettiest set up in the world

 

[andromedaaudio]

a quick google: 105 db passive sub , but they aren't pretty either a stack would be intrusive but not wallcovering I think , you need 2 .

http://magaudio.biz/index.php/en/production-en/passive-subs/item/sub-200


But I guess you have manufacturers in the states that have similar products