tima's DIY RCM

Folsom

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I ordered the .35 micron filters and a holder as an upgrade thanks to Tima.

Tima, it would be great if you did a small guide on all filtration/pump parts. For example I noticed when buying these upgrade parts that the #10 holder says it's for a 10x2.5" but the filters are 9.75x2.75" but we know they fit because you use. But for someone unfamiliar this stuff can be very confusing. Also information on fittings etc might be nice. Just in general, I think it'd help people dive in.
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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I ordered the .35 micron filters and a holder as an upgrade thanks to Tima.

Tima, it would be great if you did a small guide on all filtration/pump parts. For example I noticed when buying these upgrade parts that the #10 holder says it's for a 10x2.5" but the filters are 9.75x2.75" but we know they fit because you use. But for someone unfamiliar this stuff can be very confusing. Also information on fittings etc might be nice. Just in general, I think it'd help people dive in.

Sure. Sorry for the length.

For starters, see post #7 . It lists major parts with some discussion on building the pump.

Next - In my first article about building my original system (on The Vinyl Press ) is discussion and pictures for assembling the Kuzma RD and some other elements.

Here are more details:

The Cantex PVC junction box use to hold the pump has thick walls. I started the holes with a drill, gradually increasing bit size and then used a manual reamer to open the holes to the needed size.
General Tools 130 T-handle Reamer $8 amazon

I wired the pump with lamp cord that had a inline on-off switch..
Westinghouse Lamp Cord 8 foot with rotary switch $7.30 amazon

For the Pentek 158116 ¼” #10 Slim Line, the "1/4" is the size of female intake and discharge fittings. There are a variety of 10" housings (cannisters) from Pentek, some with pressure relief valves. The clear cannisters are the least expensive, the solid blue cannisters can handle higher pressures and are more costly.

The filter industry has its own ways and are not always specific as to what fits what - as you discovered. For smaller applications, filter cannister sizes are typically 10" (#10) or 20" (#20). And filters to fit those cannisters can range, for the #10" from 9.75" to 10" in length; for #20 the same thing ranging from 19.5" to 20". Diameters also vary. If you talk to water filtration people and say I need a filter for a #10 cannister, they will know what you mean. But yeah, approaching this for the first time is like with many trades, they have their own guild speak.

It's worth noting that filters can have different end cap types. The kind we are looking for are specified 'DOE' for double open ended. For brevity, I won't go into other style end caps.

Filter ratings are another specification to be aware of. In simple terms, filter ratings or filter grade tells you the smallest particle size (in microns) that the filter can separate out of the solution. Be aware the rating is considered either nominal or absolute which speaks to efficiency. A nominal rating says something like 'NN% of 1 micron" eg. 90% of 1 micron and larger particles are captured or prevented from passing through the filter. An absolute rating is a cut-off point or the largest diameter particle that will pass through the filter, iln effect the 'exact' consistent pore size of the filter.

Typically (but not always) if a filter does not specify as absolute then it is nominally rated. Many cheaper filters have minimal specifications. ---> The 0.35 micron Flow Max FM-0.35-975 2-1/2” x 9-3/4” filter has a nominal rating. Roughly, it should remove most particles greater than 5 microns.<--- The micron number for nominal rated filters is relative. Typically absolute rated filters are more expensive and you can sometimes gauge what you have by its price. As Neal Antin taught me, ideally what you want is a datasheet (spec sheet, cut sheet) for a filter.

Other components include fittings (hose barbs) and tubing. Hose barbs (and plumbing fittings generally) also have their own language. Relevant to our discussion there is a barb size described in terms of the inside diameter (ID) of the tubing that attaches to the barb. And there is a thread size for the threaded intake or discharge into or onto which the barb is attached. These can be threaded Male or Female. MNPT means male threads, FNPT is female threads - these are preceded by a size, inches for the US system. For example 1/2" MNPT x 3/8" barb means a hose barb with 1/2" threads that will fit into a 1/2" female and attach a hose with an inside diameter of 3/8". You need to pay attention to these and they vary across the filtration system. You cannot measure openings with a ruler, so go by product specifications.

In the system described here I use 3/8" tubing from tank to pump and 1/4" tubing everywhere else.

Discharge from tank: this depends on the specific tank you use and the tubing size you will run to the pump. Typically these have a valve to control shutoff and a female fitting. Try to get specification on fitting size from the manufacturer or vendor before you buy. Instructions may not include the information.
Intake to pump: the Little Giant 1-AA-OM pump offers both a 1/4" Female fitting or 1/2" Male intake fitting. I used the Female threaded intake and chose a 1/4" MNPT (male national standard pipe thread) to 3/8" hose barb made from Nylon.
Discharge from pump: pump fitting is 1/4" male. I chose a 1/4" FNPT to 1/4" brass hose barb.
Intake and Discharge of filter cannister: these are identical. Cannister cap has 1/4" female fittings and I chose 1/4" MNPT to 1/4" hose barb in brass.

I suggest using nylon plumbers tape on all threaded fittings. The fitment size of hose barbs can sometimes determine choice of hose barb material (brass, stainless, nylon, etc.) Not every fitting combination is available. I did not need hose clamps, but be prepared to use them if you have leaks.

Snag this picture and enlarge it on your computer. You should be able to see all 5 hose barbs.

First RCM PUMP.png

There is the whole topic of matching the right pump to the application which includes filter, tubing, head, flow rate, pressure, etc.etc. It is kinda complex at first and I will not go into that here. Suffice it to say my DIY pump/filter system works as described in this thread and in my articles on TVP.

To be forthcoming: I am in the process of changing my filtration system to use an absolute rated 0.2 micron filter with a claimed efficiency of 99.98%. (PDF datasheet here) The type of filter should have a much longer lifespan in my DIY RCM system. And, as it turns out, doing so is much more complicated than just dropping a 10" different cartridge into my cannister. It means basically an entirely new set of filtration components: filter, cannister, pump, tubing, hose barbs, etc. I have it built, but not evaluated yet. A complete report will be published sometime this year. This does nothing to invalidate the filter system we discussed here.
 
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tima

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The USC, Pentek, filters and in-line pump ordered. Need to make a decision on WEWU record holder or the Vinyl Stack. The stack is more user friendly where I can let 4 records dry while another 4 are getting cleaned v/s pulling all the records off WEWU putting it in a rack to air dry.

Ordered the pump from - https://www.energyconscious.com/little-giant-1-aa-om-115v-12.html
Added Ilford Ilfotol via Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009R6ND/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Are either of the distilled water from Wholefoods (came across it on Amazon) - https://products.wholefoodsmarket.com/product/365-everyday-value-distilled-water-b9d36f or the one from CVS - https://www.cvs.com/shop/gold-emblem-distilled-water-128-oz-prodid-1190732 is good enough?

The only thing missing now is the tubing, which I will go pickup from home depot. Hope to start cleaning records by July 4th time frame.

Thank You

Sounds like the Vinyl Stack is more convenient if you can have two spindles of records going. I do that with my Kuzma rotissiserie and it lets me do more in less time than if I had only a single spindle.

Good price on the pump!

Either of your choices will do. I buy whatever is the cheapest distilled water du jour.

Good luck! Please come back and tell us how it works for you.
 

shadowlight

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Oct 27, 2016
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I am starting the build process and had a question around the filter tank. What's the trick to make sure that the filter tank is always full and how much do I need to compensate for the additional distill water with IPA and Illford? Should I use 1.5 cup IPA and 10ml wetting agent?
 

Folsom

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Don't over think it IMO. If you have 6-10L just put around a half bottle to a full IPA bottle of IPA (32oz). The IPA is just to stop growth in your system of unwanted bio organisms. With the wetting agent I actually discovered a problem with them.

I had to cycle my system out a few times when I tried to increase the Tertigol Tima recommended. Without surface tension you can't form bubbles, and my LP's were not getting clean. It only has a minor amount of value of helping to cling to stuff coming off of the record really. This may have been discovered by some of the all-in-one manufacturers who recommended just water. I may add a few drops, or maybe not from now on.

However I do like the .35 micron setup that Tima recommended, working well for me as an upgrade.
 

tima

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The other day I saw .2 micron filters somewhere, on Amazon maybe? They cost a little more.

The 'trick' is for the filter to be rated 'absolute' or have a high level of efficiency, say 97-99%. The data sheet for the one I'm now using (Flowmax FPP-0.2-975-DOE) is referenced in post #142. Absolute filters will cost more, both for what they do and the longevity of their use. My previous filter was .35 micron nominal. I am taking this a bit to the extreme, yes. The pump I describe in my articles (Little Giant 1-AA-OM) is inadequate to that filter.
 
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tima

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Not sure it's been put onto the thread, but has anyone thought to use an aquarium tank filter system like this?

https://www.finest-filters.co.uk/aquatic-equipment/external-canister-filters/

surely that's a good system - you can change filters - maybe worth trying different filters

The aquarium pump a friend is using is the Sicce Syncra Silent, 0.5
His reference: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/sicce-syncra-silent-0-5-185-gph.html
This may be a bit noisey, but hey it is inexpensive, maybe that won't matter.

The Sicce Syncra should be okay with the nominal 1 micron polypropylene Hydronix SDC-25-0501 or the nominal 0.35 micron Flow Max FM-0.35-975 2-1/2” x 9-3/4” Pleated Filter, but not the absolute Flowmax FPP-0.2-975-DOE.
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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I am starting the build process and had a question around the filter tank. What's the trick to make sure that the filter tank is always full and how much do I need to compensate for the additional distill water with IPA and Illford? Should I use 1.5 cup IPA and 10ml wetting agent?

Wrt ensuring the filter cannister is full - which you do want - is to pre-fill it with distilled water. If it's not full it will have air in it and the pump/filter system will be less efficient and may cause the pump to struggle a bit.

I don't bother adding surfactant and IPA to the cannister when I fill it. But you can add its volume to the tank's volume and include additives accordingly.

Wrt to additives, I use 1-1/3 cups IPA and ~0.9 tablespoons of Ilford Ilfotol.
 

tima

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Mar 3, 2014
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Don't over think it IMO. If you have 6-10L just put around a half bottle to a full IPA bottle of IPA (32oz). The IPA is just to stop growth in your system of unwanted bio organisms. With the wetting agent I actually discovered a problem with them.

I had to cycle my system out a few times when I tried to increase the Tertigol Tima recommended. Without surface tension you can't form bubbles, and my LP's were not getting clean. It only has a minor amount of value of helping to cling to stuff coming off of the record really. This may have been discovered by some of the all-in-one manufacturers who recommended just water. I may add a few drops, or maybe not from now on.

However I do like the .35 micron setup that Tima recommended, working well for me as an upgrade.

I use Ilford Ilfotol instead of Tergitol, but Tergitol 15-S-9 is similar. These are the primary non-ionic surfactants as I use them in a USC, so more than minor value. Cleaning records needs surfactants. In my view, water alone will help clean a record in a USC thanks to cavitation but water alone is not enough for grease, oil, fingerprints, etc. ymmv.

The IPA is also a non-ionic surfactant. It will not leave residue which is a major benefit. The main objection to IPA is that it is highly flammable. It does not harm vinyl as long as the temperature is not too high. (cf. PVC Chemical Resistance Chart - if this forum let me attach a .PDF I'd that for you, but search with those words and you'll find one.) I see its antiseptic properties as a side benefit.

With IPA and wetting agent, my solution formula is aimed at creating a balance. There is a lot of debate about solution formulation.

To quote myself from post #102:
For solution I've been using ~12.75L of distilled water, 312ml of 99.9% pure IPA and 16ml of Ilford Ilfotol. As you know, IPA vapors are flammable at concentrations of 2% and higher. At 2% concentration the IPA flashpoint is 65°C; at 20% concentration the IPA flashpoint is 30°C. The concentration I use is 2.4% with heated tank temperature topping out at ~32°C to ~35°C so I've been taking a slight risk but have had no problems. Going forward I plan to reduce the IPA concentration to ~2.0%

There will be IPA vapors. The 'warning' relates to use of electrical equipment (pump motors, rotisserie motors, the USC itself) around IPA vapors as well as the temperature of the solution.

Good to hear the pump/filter works for you.
 
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dminches

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Wrt ensuring the filter cannister is full - which you do want - is to pre-fill it with distilled water. If it's not full it will have air in it and the pump/filter system will be less efficient and may cause the pump to struggle a bit.

Tim, when the canister is full do you think the water in there still circulates fully? I haven't been able to figure that part out.
 

Folsom

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The aquarium pump a friend is using is the Sicce Syncra Silent, 0.5
His reference: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/sicce-syncra-silent-0-5-185-gph.html
This may be a bit noisey, but hey it is inexpensive, maybe that won't matter.

The Sicce Syncra should be okay with the nominal 1 micron polypropylene Hydronix SDC-25-0501 or the nominal 0.35 micron Flow Max FM-0.35-975 2-1/2” x 9-3/4” Pleated Filter, but not the absolute Flowmax FPP-0.2-975-DOE.

I have that pump. It works like a champ on my .35 micron filters. When I had to cycle out the extra Tergitol I could fill up a large pitcher in a moments. It’s not silent out of water but it isn’t that big if a deal when you are running it between cleanings; and especially compared to vacuums and USCs it is almost nothing.
 

tima

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Tim, when the canister is full do you think the water in there still circulates fully? I haven't been able to figure that part out.

If you mean is there water in the cannister that does leave the cannister? Over time I don't think so. Is it possible for some water molecules to get trapped in the filter and not leave? Maybe.

The pump is continually pushing water through the filter and cannister. And, I've seen dirty filters that are dirty their full length which is close to the length of the cannister.

Not a physicist but I'd think the water in the cannister has a better chance of circulating fully when the cannister is full rather than having air in it.
 
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dminches

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If you mean is there water in the cannister that does leave the cannister? Over time I don't think so. Is it possible for some water molecules to get trapped in the filter and not leave? Maybe.

The pump is continually pushing water through the filter and cannister. And, I've seen dirty filters that are dirty their full length which is close to the length of the cannister.

Not a physicist but I'd think the water in the cannister has a better chance of circulating fully when the cannister is full rather than having air in it.

You could be right. When the canister is not 100% full I can see water flowing to the bottom. That doesn't mean the same think isn't happening when it isn't full. It is definitely better for the cleaning process for the filter to not be pushing out air.
 

Folsom

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If you mean is there water in the cannister that does leave the cannister? Over time I don't think so. Is it possible for some water molecules to get trapped in the filter and not leave? Maybe.

The pump is continually pushing water through the filter and cannister. And, I've seen dirty filters that are dirty their full length which is close to the length of the cannister.

Not a physicist but I'd think the water in the cannister has a better chance of circulating fully when the cannister is full rather than having air in it.

If it has pressure on it (it does), it’s going to push on all of the water, especially since the filter is resistive. If it was free flowing the top of the filter might be the only part to clearly become dirty much earlier.
 
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advanced101

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For what its worth, when I first got started I e-mailed Pentek asking if there was a need to pre-fill the canister. They said there was no need.
 
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Loheswaran

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Dec 19, 2014
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Hi guys

Following a chat with a very respected cartridge re-tipper in the UK I ordered my USM and am awaiting delivery.

He advised me to use a non-alcoholic optical lens cleaner to clean may cartridge after each play. As such i am awaiting my usm to clean my records before I start them on my new and newly tipped cartridges.

It got me thinking - i bought some from Boots the optician and it contains as follows:

Aqua (obviously)
SAS-60 Sodium Alkyl Suffonate
Pottasium Lauryl Phosphate.

I am wondering if it will be worth trying on my records. Has anyone else tried it?
 

shadowlight

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Oct 27, 2016
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Did anyone have any issues with the pump? I just put everything together and there is a leak from the pump. I have confirmed that it's not leaking from the input of the output but from behind the metal plate. Is part of the problem related to all the turns in the tubes or the uneven height/air in the tube. Hopefully, it's something that I can fix and not require a motor replacement.

I ran 8 records through the mixture without the water circulation pump being on. I am seeing water beads on the records? Does that mean that I need to add additional Ilford solution?

IMG_1862.JPG IMG_1863.JPG
 
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tima

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Did anyone have any issues with the pump? I just put everything together and there is a leak from the pump. I have confirmed that it's not leaking from the input of the output but from behind the metal plate. Is part of the problem related to all the turns in the tubes or the uneven height/air in the tube. Hopefully, it's something that I can fix and not require a motor replacement.

I ran 8 records through the mixture without the water circulation pump being on. I am seeing water beads on the records? Does that mean that I need to add additional Ilford solution?

Thanks for the clear pictures!

Your pump looks like the Little Giant 1-AA-OM - I'll assume that's what it is.

First, several people are using 1-AA-OM for filtering their USC RCM tank water and I've not heard any reports of problems or the pump itself leaking, so I have no data on this - just to let you know.

If the water is coming from behind the plate as you say, on the motor side, then that sounds like it is indeed leaking and possibly defective. If you just put the pump/filter system together that sounds like you just started with the pump.
- How old is the pump and how long have you been using it?
- Was there a time when it did not leak or has the leak always been there?

The pump is no longer sold by Little Giant (Franklin Electric). They make a ton of pumps. I've never contacted them for support but you might see what they have to say. Then, who did you buy it from? That vendor may be willing to replace a defective pump but more likely will refer you to Little Giant wrt warranty claims.

Edit: I did see this:
Your Little Giant product is guaranteed to be in perfect condition when it leaves our Factory. It is warranted against defective materials and workmanship for a period of 12 months (90 day warranty on Models: 1-AA-OM, GKPK-SC, PP-1, PPS-1, PP-12, PPS-12, PP-230 and Cooler King) from date of purchase by the user.

The pump does have replacement parts. Cut from the spec sheet:
1-AA-OM Replacement parts.jpg
I thought the forum allowed PDF uploads but I can't seem to find that, otherwise I'd send you the spec sheet for the pump. You probably could find that on the Little Giant Web site with the model nbr.

With regard to the tubing - yeah it looks a bit long. Hose length and size impact pressure - the longer and smaller the greater the drop in PSI and overall system effectiveness. You could shorten the tank to pump tube length to under 12" and the pump to cannister length to something that is useable but shorter. I'm guessing that this will not impact the leak, but you could try and see.

Hose Pressure Drop.jpg

Some water beading is inevitable but generally the water should sheet off when you take the records from the tank. With regard to using more Ilfotol: what is your current solution mix?
 
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