Ultrasonic Cavitation & Cleaning Explained
- Thread starter Neil.Antin
- Start date
The video that I saw showed Fremer bringing two records and I’m pretty sure at least one of them was used.
So...after an initial read I am thinking about using a hybrid approach for my (mono) Vinyl records (at least 60 years old).
Something like;
1- pre-rinse
2- pre-clean
3- pre-clean rinse
4- acid clean (think I found alconox powdered acid cleaner 'alconox powdered precision cleaner', else distilled vinegar)
5 acid clean rinse
6- final clean in US bath (surfactant TBD)
7- final rinse in US bath (TBD as a second US bath setup probably is required) or rinse
8- last rinse with DIW
9- dry (PVA sponge)
10- second dry
Something like;
1- pre-rinse
2- pre-clean
3- pre-clean rinse
4- acid clean (think I found alconox powdered acid cleaner 'alconox powdered precision cleaner', else distilled vinegar)
5 acid clean rinse
6- final clean in US bath (surfactant TBD)
7- final rinse in US bath (TBD as a second US bath setup probably is required) or rinse
8- last rinse with DIW
9- dry (PVA sponge)
10- second dry
What do think steps 4-5 will do that are not done by 6-7 using Tergitol 15-S-9?
You probably could air dry if you use distilled water for the rinse tank.
I'm thinking what you have with 10 steps and all the manual handling that comes with them will become v time consuming and tedious, which will lead to loss of interest after a few times and a disinclination to clean records. Speculation on my part.
Following up with what @tima just wrote:
1. If you are going to US bath clean, you do not need the acid clean. As I wrote in the book PACVR, Chapter XII, "The incorporation of the acid chemistry does manually what ultrasonics can do with power.".
2. The powdered Alconox product is a higher-pH alkaline cleaner and does not rinse as easily as the Liquinox. Not knowing where you are, you may be able to buy Liquinox from the UK Alconox Liquinox 1232-1 Critical Cleaning Liquid Detergent; 1 QT Bottle from Cole-Parmer United Kingdom (coleparmer.co.uk). However, unless your records are very dirty, you should be able to eliminate this step.
3. For a nonionic surfactant and your US tanks, again not knowing where you are, here are two options that you would use at about 0.0150% concentration:
-If in the UK, you can buy Dehypon - 1 Litre – Conservation Resources (UK) Ltd (conservation-resources.co.uk).
-If outside the UK, you can buy Polysorbate-20. This is generally readily available worldwide and is environmentally very safe. It's not as effective as Tergitol 15-S-9 or Dehypon, but it's good enough.
4. The PVA sponge is used for the manual procedure where the record is held in the label protector, and you are not handling the record. In US bath clean, as @tima says, you do not want to over handle the record(s), so you are better off letting the records air dry - just keep the general clean, and @tima I believe uses a HEPA filter. Especially, if you are cleaning many records at a time.
5. Otherwise, you do not mention how many records you need to clean. Depending on the number, there are different hardware combinations such as some people use US bath for cleaning and a vacuum-RCM for rinse/dry. But you have to be honest with yourself as to how much manual labor is OK, will the noise of a vacuum-RCM be a showstopper, how much convenience do you want, and how much do you want to spend. Note that the inexpensive US baths can be very noisy, enough to drive many people from the room.
6. A simple US cleaning process can be a 40kHz Humminguru for pre-clean and a 120kHz Degritter for final clean/rinse, dry. These US units clean only 1-record at a time, but they both use drop-in spinners which makes it very convenient and fast to move the record from one machine to another.
Good Luck,
Neil
thanks for those insights! Being located in the Netherlands I expect UK sources to be available provided these suppliers already have overcome the surprise of being Brexited out of the EU ;-) (plenty Vinyl sellers have not yet recovered)
I should have added that this is a baseline cleaning, and I expect to not need as rigurous cleaning further down the line (other than for 'new' records). So far I have gathered a good hundred or so mono, mostly fairly special stuff.
I am using US for other purposes, manual labor is OK as I expect to do smaller batches as records arrive.
The lower the number of steps the better, and US had gotten my interest but I plan to do a test spin of a Clearaudio RCM and a Keith Monks at friends (also to get a feel for things).
I should have added that this is a baseline cleaning, and I expect to not need as rigurous cleaning further down the line (other than for 'new' records). So far I have gathered a good hundred or so mono, mostly fairly special stuff.
I am using US for other purposes, manual labor is OK as I expect to do smaller batches as records arrive.
The lower the number of steps the better, and US had gotten my interest but I plan to do a test spin of a Clearaudio RCM and a Keith Monks at friends (also to get a feel for things).
update; Tergitol 15-S-9 is on its way, a 2 RPM motor unit with disc label protectors too, I already make DIW for my espresso machine, now looking for an US device.
Great to have all the relevant science info (that I otherwise would have been trying to find by myself) and practical application driven by the findings in one document, muchos gracias for what must have been a monster effort Neil!
Great to have all the relevant science info (that I otherwise would have been trying to find by myself) and practical application driven by the findings in one document, muchos gracias for what must have been a monster effort Neil!
Be careful of the 2-rpm motor, for US cleaning that can be too fast depending on the tank size and how many records you are cleaning at-once, and the kHz of the US tank. Lower kHz (<~60kHz) are sensitive to flow in the tank, and if the flow in the tank is > 1/2 the tank volume/min, the cavitation intensity drops off pretty quickly. The record as it spins through the fluid will agitate the fluid; spin too fast and enough flow is developed to cause a reduction in cavitation intensity. The book in Chapter XIV has formula to use to evaluate the spin speed, the number of records spinning, and the tank volume (liters).
Otherwise, the book kept me entertained "when" I was retired - kept my skill sets sharp - no longer retired.
Good Luck, and keep us informed,
Neil
thanks! I'll reread that chapter and do the math...I can still change to a 1 RPM motor!
I'll likely end up with a 6 Liter US tank version at 40Khz, doing 2 records at a time probably. TBD if I'm adding a filter and pump.
will keep you informed!
I'll likely end up with a 6 Liter US tank version at 40Khz, doing 2 records at a time probably. TBD if I'm adding a filter and pump.
will keep you informed!
With a 6-L, 40kHz unit, and 2-rpm, you should not clean more than 1-record at a time. For 2-records, 1.5-rpm is max, so a 1-rpm spinner is fine.
In general, if you add a pump/filter, do not use it when cleaning, use it when you stop cleaning and you are reloading the spinner. See the book XIV.15.3 for the equation to use to determine how long you need to operate the pump to filter the tank; it's not just simply the tank volume divided by the pump flow rate.
If you have the financial resources, the German made Elmasonic P60H dual frequency 37-kHz/80-kHz is pretty much the best available 6L US tank PP_Elmasonic_P60H_EN.pdf (elma-ultrasonic.com). You get the best of both worlds - 37-kHz for the gross cleaning and 80-kHz for the fine particulate with variable power and pulse power options. @tima uses the P120H (12-L) for cleaning and then a lower cost 12-L Elmasonic unit for rinsing.
But, to get started, you can use the P60H with a no-rinse concentration of Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.003% to 0.005% to get just wetting and then operate 10-min at 37 kHz @ 75-90% power followed by 10-min at 80-kHz at 100% power with pulse.
There are obviously much cheaper Chinese US tanks available but keep in-mind not all power ratings are the same. The Elmasonic P-series are powerful units verified by how quickly they heat the tank with just US. As I wrote previous, I just worked with someone using the Elmasonic P60H and to allow serial cleaning we needed to add a pump & radiator.
As far as a pump & filter, if you have a ready supply of DIW, you can just refresh the tank frequently. How frequently depends on how dirty the records are. But just keep in-mind that after the first records, absent a filter, the follow-on records are spinning in the detritus removed from the previous records. Waiting until the bath is visibly dirty is too long. Bath management of US tanks is detail that needs attention if you want the best cleaning performance.
Keep us advised,
Neil
makes perfect sense!
I suspect my (only mono) collection may not warrant a high end US bath or have a need to spin more than 1 or 2 (at most) records as I plan to clean once and stay clean for as long as possible and I expect not to be able to source enough of the records I lust for to keep me very busy cleaning.
Thanks for the info on pump and filter, makes sense too...I've been looking at various pumps and doing off-line cleaning cycle means that pump selection is far easier and a smaller pore filter system is feasible since higher pressure pumps are needed and those typically also have higher flow rates.! Throwing away the fluid is also an option, its just that determining the right moment may be difficult, I fuly get how visual cues won't work. Assuming records are middle of the road dirty ( I buy VG+ or near mint and mint graded records so reasonably well cared for, although that not necessarily reflects cleanliness), is there a rule of thumb number before changing the bath becomes prudent?
(Distilling a gallon of DIW takes 4 hours or so so if every record requires a fresh bath a pump becomes an asset real quick, if the number is like 6 or so it's likely break even with the investment in $ and work using a pump and filter)
Using TWO USC, one with tap water and surfactant and one rinse cycle using DIW may also be an option....back to reading your great book!
I suspect my (only mono) collection may not warrant a high end US bath or have a need to spin more than 1 or 2 (at most) records as I plan to clean once and stay clean for as long as possible and I expect not to be able to source enough of the records I lust for to keep me very busy cleaning.
Thanks for the info on pump and filter, makes sense too...I've been looking at various pumps and doing off-line cleaning cycle means that pump selection is far easier and a smaller pore filter system is feasible since higher pressure pumps are needed and those typically also have higher flow rates.! Throwing away the fluid is also an option, its just that determining the right moment may be difficult, I fuly get how visual cues won't work. Assuming records are middle of the road dirty ( I buy VG+ or near mint and mint graded records so reasonably well cared for, although that not necessarily reflects cleanliness), is there a rule of thumb number before changing the bath becomes prudent?
(Distilling a gallon of DIW takes 4 hours or so so if every record requires a fresh bath a pump becomes an asset real quick, if the number is like 6 or so it's likely break even with the investment in $ and work using a pump and filter)
Using TWO USC, one with tap water and surfactant and one rinse cycle using DIW may also be an option....back to reading your great book!
The book at the end of Chapter XIV provides a parts list for a few pump-filter options. High pressure low flow pumps are readily available as addressed in Chapter XIV. The Shurflo positive displacement pumps are available in EU especially the 12VDC versions and there is now the copy-kat Chinese SEAFLO pumps. The book XIV.16 addresses the details.
Otherwise, standard ~10" absolute rated filters should be available in the EU otherwise, from the UK - Spectrum PPP Spectrum Premier Pleat Sediment Filters 93/4in Open Ended AAS From £79.01 - Spectrum Water Filters by Wrekin Water Filtration.
Not practical. The record weighs from 120-gms low to 200-gms high. The detritus being removed weighs maybe at most 25-mg and there will be some interference from benign moisture.
Best estimate, maybe every 5-batches.
Note that you do need to use distilled water. You can use demineralized water which in the EU is generally very cheap and readily available and as the book say in Chapter VII - VII.6 USA vs EU/UK: For reasons unknown, distilled water is readily available in most USA grocery stores while demineralized water is not. On the other hand, demineralized water is readily available in the EU/UK, but distilled water is not. There are subtle differences, the pH of distilled water tends to be slightly above pH-7, while the pH of demineralized water tends to be less than pH-7. For the purposes of record cleaning, either is acceptable for cleaner preparation and both will provide a spot-free rinse.
Recommend not using tap-water with just Tergitol 15-S-9 and not in US. The salts in the tap-water will collect and corrode the tank at the water line from evaporation. Detergents such as Liquinox or your household products have ingredients to sequester the salts in tap water to prevent them from interfering with the cleaning process.
Be careful when extrapolating one process such as manual in a sink with a label protector rinsing with tap-water and then applying part of that to US cleaning. These are two very different processes. The manual scrub with a label protector is very forgiving of chemistry and water quality until the final rinse. As soon as you move to machine assisted cleaning, they are not as forgiving with chemistry, and you need to be more careful of the chemistry details to get the most from machine assisted cleaning processes.
Each process has it's own pros and cons.
Take care,
Neil
Good news on the Kinetronics Tiger cloth now has a stitching at the edge. WRT to the brush:
"XII.5 Other Bush Details: The Osage™ brush and one version of the Statis™ brush have white nylon bristles. Off-white is the natural color of nylon. Black is produced by adding a permanent pigment. Performance wise, there is no difference. Additionally, Stasis™ is now offering a record brush with bristles tapered to 10-microns. At, 10-microns, this brush will deeply penetrate the groove. Finely tapered bristles are advertised for some toothbrushes. The problem with the fine taper is how robust will they be and is it beneficial to get deep into the groove? If the bristle is too soft then it will not move the fluid as well, and it's the fluid chemistry and motion that is doing most of the cleaning. If the bristle is too stiff, then the tips will facture and the pieces are now in the groove. So, the jury is out on whether the 10-micron tapered bristle is going to be beneficial, and whether the brush will last as long as the current 50-micron version."
The book addresses in XIV.9.2.b the use of a pour-over coffee-filter with the example Melitta 6406 16 Coffee Maker, 52 oz, Glass Carafe (Melitta® Coffee Pour-Over & Glass Carafe(52oz) | Official — Melitta USA). Coffee filters are generally good for about 10-15 microns filtration which is not bad. Some people with the Humminguru use this method for filtering, but they only need to filter 350-ml/
So, yes you can jury-rig something located below the US tank and via its drain throttle the flow to gravity drain through a filter into a large enough container for batch filtration. You could also jury-rig something to use aquarium polishing filter pads - but the best filtration I have found is 50-micron - Amazon.com : Aquarium Polishing Filter Pad, Aquarium Filter Pad, Aquarium Filter Floss for Fish Tank Filters, Water Polishing Pad for Aquarium Filters (50 Micron, 24" x 36" - 1 Pack) : Pet Supplies.
Isonic is now offering an inexpensive US tank filter/pump FTR01-P | iSonic® 1 Micron In-Water Filter for P4875II+MVR, P4875-NH+M – iSonic Inc. that you may be able to source in the EU. Isonic provides no details and the 1-micron filter which if nominally rated (which is likely based on the cost) could be no better than 10-15 micron absolute. They do not specify the flow rate, but it cannot be much and how it discharges into the US tank may cause foam. I am not endorsing this product, only bringing it to your attention.
Take care,
Neil
I have been using a Humminguru with distilled water.
I'm thinking of adding some Tergitol 15-S-9 ... two drops/tank of water at which concentration does not require a water rinse I have read.
Can anyone tell me about TergiKleen? https://tergikleen.net/
Is it the same as Tergitol 15-S-9? It would be easier for me to obtain.
TergiKleen recommends a post-cleaning water spray rinse.
Do you think I could get by with a distilled water brushing and suction on a VP! 16.5 instead as a last cleaning step?
thanks,
Ken
I'm thinking of adding some Tergitol 15-S-9 ... two drops/tank of water at which concentration does not require a water rinse I have read.
Can anyone tell me about TergiKleen? https://tergikleen.net/
Is it the same as Tergitol 15-S-9? It would be easier for me to obtain.
TergiKleen recommends a post-cleaning water spray rinse.
Do you think I could get by with a distilled water brushing and suction on a VP! 16.5 instead as a last cleaning step?
thanks,
Ken
Ken,
The details for how to use Tergitol 15-S-9 are addressed in this post - #62 (whatsbestforum.com). However, noting that you are in Canada, you can substitute Polysorbate 20 for the Tergitol 15-S-9. Polysorbate 20 is not as good as Tergitol 15-S-9, but its good enough and you should be able to find it in Canada relatively easily such as Amazon.ca: Polysorbate 20 and the Nalgene Dropper Bottle is available Amazon.ca Nalgene 562411-0060 LDPE Drop Dispenser-TSA Approved : Nalgene: Amazon.ca: Industrial & Scientific.
Otherwise, Tergikleen is a blend of two nonionic surfactants – Dow™ Tergitol™ 15-S-3 (not water soluble) and Tergitol™ 15-S-9 (water soluble). Tergitol™ 15-S-3 is a hydrocarbon emulsifier and in water can act as a defoaming agent. Some people have addressed using in the HG without really knowing what's in it. The filter may take out the 15-S-3 and you do want to rinse as the manufacture states. As far as use, the problem with standard eye-droppers is that one-drop can measure as much as 0.1-ml/drop in which case 1-drop is 285 ppm and you really want to rinse to prevent residue.
Otherwise, there is G-Sonic groovewasher.com/products/g-sonic-ultrasonic-concentrate of unknown ingredients and unknown concentration that quite a few people with the HG like. I am not endorsing or recommending this product - just bringing it your attention - although it costs more than 1-pt of Tergitol 15-S-9 and you still have shipping.
Hope this is of some help.
Neil
Neil,
that is very helpful indeed...thanks so much! With respect to the Polysorbate 20, is there only one grade suitable for all uses including cleaning records? Is there a recommended dilution for ultrasonic record cleaners and would I need a distilled water rinse after cleaning?
thanks again,
Ken
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