Vote today... Mitt Romney or Barack Obama

[jap]

Pretty **** poor sampling if you ask me...how many active members?

Site data shows 3185 members, don't see any data for "active members."

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Take a guess where a lot of middle class welfare in the USA goes. If you guessed "tax break for mortgages", you are 100% correct. Now, some might argue that this is a good thing, because it encourages people to buy homes instead of rent. However, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that ANY type of assistance for housing actually distorts the housing market. If the cost of finance goes down, the price of the house goes up to compensate. In the end, what this does is shift money away from the government (they lose the money they could have made from tax), shift money away from the home buyer (because of the distorted housing market), and shift money into the hands of real estate developers.

In Australia, there is something called a "first home buyers grant", where people who have never owned homes are given between $7000 - $15000 to help them purchase homes. Result - within a couple of years, real estate prices rapidly increased such that housing no longer became affordable for first home buyers. The well-intentioned grant resulted in a shift of money towards housing developers and people who already owned homes, creating a market distortion.

Some people here want to get rid of it, but it would be political suicide for either of our major parties to consider it.

I believe that reducing inequality in society is important (i.e. I am ... shock, horror ... a socialist!!!), but poorly thought-out but well-intentioned policies like the ones in your country and mine are not the way to do it.

We had a whole lot of things distorting the housing market here. The mortgage deduction, while one of them, was a relatively minor player compared to manipulation of interest rates, deregulation of financial products and services and the resulting packaging of bad mortgages beneath good ones, in funds that ultimately had the integrity of junk bonds. Some people made a lot of money. None of them were middle class homeowners, though many of them got in way over their heads, and you can't completely blame that on outside forces. But that's nothing compared to the market manipulations of corporate subsidies and tax shelters and a tax code that hits investment income at half the rate of wages. And, of course, it's all too massively popular to be ended by politicians. We're probably screwed.

Tim

 

[Bill Hart]

We had a whole lot of things distorting the housing market here. The mortgage deduction, while one of them, was a relatively minor player compared to manipulation of interest rates, deregulation of financial products and services and the resulting packaging of bad mortgages beneath good ones, in funds that ultimately had the integrity of junk bonds. Some people made a lot of money. None of them were middle class homeowners, though many of them got in way over their heads, and you can't completely blame that on outside forces. But that's nothing compared to the market manipulations of corporate subsidies and tax shelters and a tax code that hits investment income at half the rate of wages. And, of course, it's all too massively popular to be ended by politicians. We're probably screwed.

Tim

Tim, I agree with much of what you have said, but the housing bubble was also driven by the notion that everyone should be a home-owner regardlesss of their credit or ability to pay. And, aside from all the scary derivatives and incaluable risk in securitizing bad mortgage debt, as the housing market kept rising, people relied on home equity to fund their pursuits, in the belief that housing prices wouldn't crash. Of course, it all came crashing down, not only on Wall St., but on the heads of home-owners who owed banks money for over-inflated property that was figuratively under water, on loans that they couldn't possibly afford to maintain when the job market tanked too. A glut of foreclosures, markets where stuff doesn't move, even at distress prices, and banks now putting potential home buyers through the tortures of the damned to get financing in those limited instances where there is a buyer. Granted, this has nothing to do with the market for 80 million dollar condos, or the oligarchs who pay cash for them so their 20 something daughters can have a nice place to play in NYC.
It's the middle class, whose main investment tended to be housing, that got hammered. The mortgage deduction is the least of it. But, a good way to ensure that the housing market stays moribund is to kill that deduction.

 

[steve williams]

But, a good way to ensure that the housing market stays moribund is to kill that deduction.

I agree. That's when people become house rich and money poor

 

[NorthStar]

Pretty **** poor sampling if you ask me...how many active members?

---- Will be very interesting comes Tuesday. :b ...To see and compare with our own results here from us at WBF. ...That's exactly the purpose of this poll from this thread.

* I calculated that at any forums from the Internet, a 10% of the total number of members is as good as you get regarding the active participation, on average. Some forums could be a little more (not much more though), and others less, and very depending on the popularity (knowledge, intelligence level, and learning curve) of each forum (site).

That is my own scientific analysis of statistics. :b ...It is an approximation.

 

[Mosin]

I agree. That's when people become house rich and money poor

Exactly, and when you look at other deductions, the US lags behind other many countries. Some of the emerging Eastern European countries seem to have gotten it right. Estonia is one, and that country had eight percent growth last year, even with its Western European neighbors sinking into a hole. Then, there is Romania with its off-the-top sixteen percent flat tax for everyone, regardless of income. They were late to the Euro party, but they, like Estonia, are headed in the right direction. On our side of the pond is Chile, which continues to implement reforms started by the military government. Those reforms must be working because Chile's economy continues to grow while their neighbors Brazil and Argentina continue to see hard times.

Capital gains is taxed in the US higher than anywhere else, for example. That alone puts a damper on further investment. It has also lead to some wealth flight from the US, too. The last time I read anything about it, the waiting list for an appointment at the US Embassy in London to renounce US citizenship was eighteen months. The most publicized lately is Facebook's CEO Mark Zuckerberg who took his cash, and hightailed it to Singapore. And so it goes.

 

[A.wayne]

Take a guess where a lot of middle class welfare in the USA goes. If you guessed "tax break for mortgages", you are 100% correct. Now, some might argue that this is a good thing, because it encourages people to buy homes instead of rent. However, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that ANY type of assistance for housing actually distorts the housing market. If the cost of finance goes down, the price of the house goes up to compensate. In the end, what this does is shift money away from the government (they lose the money they could have made from tax), shift money away from the home buyer (because of the distorted housing market), and shift money into the hands of real estate developers.

In Australia, there is something called a "first home buyers grant", where people who have never owned homes are given between $7000 - $15000 to help them purchase homes. Result - within a couple of years, real estate prices rapidly increased such that housing no longer became affordable for first home buyers. The well-intentioned grant resulted in a shift of money towards housing developers and people who already owned homes, creating a market distortion.

Some people here want to get rid of it, but it would be political suicide for either of our major parties to consider it.

I believe that reducing inequality in society is important (i.e. I am ... shock, horror ... a socialist!!!), but poorly thought-out but well-intentioned policies like the ones in your country and mine are not the way to do it.

Biggest misconception , "government money" .....!!!

Government has no money, government take money from the earners and redistribute it via cronyism. If government wanted better more affordable housing , then give builders incentives, not tax them in the name of redistribution for the poor ...

Giving builders tax free profits from low income housing , would increase the number of affordable housing ...!!! instead monies are taken from producers , then bogged down with inefficient government cronyism and taxism via wealth redistribution to Politicians ...


Regards

 

[A.wayne]

Exactly, and when you look at other deductions, the US lags behind other many countries. Some of the emerging Eastern European countries seem to have gotten it right. Estonia is one, and that country had eight percent growth last year, even with its Western European neighbors sinking into a hole. Then, there is Romania with its off-the-top sixteen percent flat tax for everyone, regardless of income. They were late to the Euro party, but they, like Estonia, are headed in the right direction. On our side of the pond is Chile, which continues to implement reforms started by the military government. Those reforms must be working because Chile's economy continues to grow while their neighbors Brazil and Argentina continue to see hard times.

Capital gains is taxed in the US higher than anywhere else, for example. That alone puts a damper on further investment. It has also lead to some wealth flight from the US, too. The last time I read anything about it, the waiting list for an appointment at the US Embassy in London to renounce US citizenship was eighteen months. The most publicized lately is Facebook's CEO Mark Zuckerberg who took his cash, and hightailed it to Singapore. And so it goes.

Won't help him (Zuckerberg) the laws were changed years ago Regarding citizenship and taxes. What is happening here in the states is by design, the housing bubble rise and fall was no accident, neither was its timing .

Stay tuned ....

 

[steve williams]

Won't help him (Zuckerberg) the laws were changed years ago Regarding citizenship and taxes. What is happening here in the states is by design, the housing bubble rise and fall was no accident, neither was its timing .

Stay tuned ....

well it wasn't really Zuckerberg but rather one of his initial partners who now lives in Singapore

 

[Mosin]

Won't help him (Zuckerberg) the laws were changed years ago Regarding citizenship and taxes. What is happening here in the states is by design, the housing bubble rise and fall was no accident, neither was its timing .

Stay tuned ....

Maybe in the short term, but the US can't hold onto him forever.

As to the monetary situation, if the dollar loses its standing as the world reference currency, we become one great big Greece. That standing is all that is keeping us propped up, and China has already made initial steps to reject it. China and its Eastern neighbors just started trading with the Chinese Yuan as their reference. If that trend spreads, watch out!

Steve, you are correct...my bad....still a billionaire.

 

[A.wayne]

Ahhh the Chinese...

Relax ....

Control the oil , you control the planet , as long as oil is priced in USD , we will continue to control and **** the rest of the planet off ...

 

[A.wayne]

well it wasn't really Zuckerberg but rather one of his initial partners who now lives in Singapore

Well we should inform Mr Win ...

 

[Mosin]

Ahhh the Chinese...

Relax ....

Control the oil , you control the planet , as long as oil is priced in USD , we will continue to control and **** the rest of the planet off ...

That's worrisome, if not a bit tenuous. It appears that we have, or are in the process of, losing a lot of control in the Middle East. Hugo Chavez isn't exactly our friend, either. The rest of the planet is getting a little perturbed at us, too.

None of our politicians seem to be chomping at the bit to fix any of it, either. I'm pretty much disillusioned with the lot of them.

Well we should inform Mr Win ...

He did.

 

[A.wayne]

Agree ,

For their Brazilian oil investment to payoff, guess what has to happen to oil supply out of the ME , the gulf , Canada ...?

1. Block keystone pipeline deal
2. Shut down the gulf after emergency move wells to Brazil ...
3. Covertly destabilize the ME , push over crony governments , assassinate Gaddafi, control oil leases, stop african OPEC....
4. Bring Brazilian oil online ...

http://www.examiner.com/article/oba...ur-oil-after-giving-you-2-billion-to-drill-it


We get very little oil from Chavez , who is another paper tiger , as for China trading partners for oil, Iran is the only outsider left , they will move on Iran , as they have done on all the rest ...

 

[DaveyF]

People, when it comes to the RE market, the main driving force is and has been for many years.....the media. Plain and simple.

 

[Mosin]

We get very little oil from Chavez...

He refines a lot of the oil that is already ours because we are short on refineries. I see him as an unfriendly middleman.

 

[A.wayne]

Unfriendly yes, a threat ...no

 

[rockitman]

I like this picture...

 

[MylesBAstor]

He refines a lot of the oil that is already ours because we are short on refineries. I see him as an unfriendly middleman.

We get roughly 30 pct of our oil from Venezuela. That's in large part because it's very heavy crude (unlike that from Saudi Arabia) and basically only the US has the refineries to refine Venezuelan oil.

 

[NorthStar]

-- Last day, 64 votes (right now). :b