Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[Mike Lavigne]

Dear Mike. You really should because it was all by you. Your room, the room you made yourself, is the accomplishment. Equipments? Anyone with money can buy. You should be praised more when people visit you instead of praising the system. That's my opinion. No brown-nosing.

Dear Tang,

thank you for those all too generous words.

i think there are many here with as serious as intentions as myself, but maybe some without as much to work with, or not widely known, who have gone down similar pathways. for better or worse my case is well known. i have a few friends who are not on forums who are as committed as myself, so i'm not just saying this. and not all are in agreement with things i have done......even frequent visitors who are good friends. keeps my feet on the ground a little. but the effort i did make, i take credit for that.....and appreciate the respect that effort does bring.

serious all-in room optimizing, without a time limit, for me was therapy, and i highly recommend it. you can't be in a hurry. all you need is a musical vision for the sound you want, and then go for it and don't stop until you have it.

 

[Lagonda]

I had my acoustician made them for me Lagonda san. I wanted them to be part of the room decoration not an add on. Here is a side angle.


View attachment 61273

I will keep doing what Mike did with his room. A bit here a bit there. I will experiment with his use of cloth on hard surface too. Expect to take a year or so. In the picture, behind the Studer I have a brown 3 meter tall absorber standing. I will eventually remove them (there is another one on opposite wall.) I experimented replacing with another diffuser, the sound did open up a bit more to the side.

The removal of absorbers made the room more lively and flood back my room with sonic info that was suck out. Using wood took the brittles off my highs. Cymbal crash, percussion instrument have better resolution, snap, as if you hear from tape vs vinyl.

However, the image, placement, the ease and effortlessness of sound actually are improved by realigning my horns. I was doing this with my tone arm guy first using pink noise playing left and right channel individually. This revealed that the noise beaming from the top and mid horn of my left and right speakers were one side higher one side lower. In other words I was hearing pink noise from left speaker directly beaming to my left ear but I had to stand up 7" to hear a direct pitch on my right ear. We then use laser beam to guide the horn position to my ears and adjusted them accordingly. I still need to fine tune the angle more because the damn horns are very heavy and I am short. I had to hold up my arms supporting each horn while my tone arm guy adjusting and locking up the angle from behind the horn. Too much for my back. We could have done it more precise if I used two more men and I was just sitting at my listening chair pointing finger what to do. I also toed out my right speaker to the same angle of left one. My room is L-shape. There is no equal wall on the right of my listening position. So Ralph my speaker designer toed in the right speaker to compensate when we initially made installation. Imo it sounds much better now and I just need to dial the volume knob of my right Lamm pre one notch higher. Simpler the better.

View attachment 61279

You look at the above picture closely you will see a green laser beam going across from the right gold plated TAD tweeter to the left. The one on the left is positioned below the beam. So this means my left speaker is standing a little lower than my right speaker. I don't know if this has any consequence to the sound but I will find way to adjust later. The speaker weighs like a ton.

Anyway, it is an on going process and does not cost much. It only costed me $100 to hire a tone arm guy but the pay off is much more than changing a cartridge.

Tang

Thank you Tang. Looks like you
are getting serious about your
room acoustics, just wait till
your subs are back and the
bass gremlins start showing
their ugly heads
I took out a wall to increase the size of my listening room last week,
and all I thought I knew about my
system is gone. Starting with
a clean slate is a challenge,
but like you I am looking forward to the job

 

[Folsom]

It looks like you may have to cut those down to help fit the subs bass boxes!

 

[Tango]

Thank you Tang. Looks like you
are getting serious about your
room acoustics, just wait till
your subs are back and the
bass gremlins start showing
their ugly heads
I took out a wall to increase the size of my listening room last week,
and all I thought I knew about my
system is gone. Starting with
a clean slate is a challenge,
but like you I am looking forward to the job

They are bass horn not really subs as audioquattr said. Could be better could be worse . I do expect the challenges. Part of the fun. You send me good luck so I will walk out with victory. Have to ask how audioquattr is doing integrating it in his system.

 

[jeff1225]

Tang,
Can you give us more information on the wood panels? What's the design philosophy, what are they made out of, etc. The system sounds great!

 

[Lagonda]

They are bass horn not really subs as audioquattr said. Could be better could be worse . I do expect the challenges. Part of the fun. You send me good luck so I will walk out with victory. Have to ask how audioquattr is doing integrating it in his system.

I am crossing my fingers for you Tango

 

[Tango]

Tang,
Can you give us more information on the wood panels? What's the design philosophy, what are they made out of, etc. The system sounds great!

I am just a dumb audiophile who know no technical stuff Jeff. I just know how I want my system to sound. So, I had my acoustician sat, listened with me and I pointed exactly where the abnormalities were in particular section of instrument being played, cymbals, triangle, piano high keys, etc. Those were pretty much high frequency reflective distortions from glass windows. (This was after I identified that my absorber panels were sucking out musical info.) He then went back and used his software to calculate the shape of diffuser to have the effective range of 800hz to around 4K hz. with center frequency of 2K hz. The panels are made of teak wood. You see three strips of panel on the wall. They are not one piece. Each strip is actually comes in three sections put together so that I have a possibility to remove them after my big heavy bass horn is put in front of them. I can remove just the lowest section to clear space for bass horn too if I want (Maybe this answer Folsom's question). Here is a close up picture. I am sorry I cannot answer technical question. And yes we did in-room measurement before the diffusers were made. I just didn't bother looking.

 

[bonzo75]

Did he tell you what effect different types of wood will have

 

[Folsom]

I personally think he's fighting something else. The horns are awfully directional to really be experiencing big problems from the back wall.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Hi Tang,

Hope you are well.

Just listened to the Milstein vid with the new room treatments. Sounding really a big step forward indeed!! Congratulations.

Best wishes and enjoy the bass horns when they arrive. Might need some judicious use of bass traps with those.

 

[Folsom]

Microstrip?

I guess the answer is yes, but I'm not sure why.

 

[Tango]

Microstrip?

Look who's talking. You are delusional of me being you.

 

[Folsom]

Look who's talking. You are delusional of me being you.

I think it's clear by now, his stereo is everyone's stereo. You're just the mechanism to do the grunt work.

 

[NorthStar]

What a fun bunch.

 

[Tango]

I personally think he's fighting something else. The horns are awfully directional to really be experiencing big problems from the back wall.

No fighting. I am embracing.

Here are two different walls.

 

[Jazzhead]

No fighting. I am embracing.

Here are two different walls.

Easily discernable difference.....tonally fuller , much more harmonic development , thanks for posting and enjoy the fruits of your labour.

 

[PeterA]

Dear G,

You amaze me how you can detect things. I am pretty much surprise of what I am hearing too. The wood panels are very effective. Adjusting the angle of my top and middle horns is also the key. We are ocean apart. I don't know how to share you my joy except giving you this video of Milstein.

Thank you Tang. Speaking of adjusting angles, those slats on the right look to be about 45 degrees pointed down. Have you experimented with different angles or even pointing them up to the ceiling? How much sound gets through to the glass may be audible. Just curious.

 

[PeterA]

I had my acoustician made them for me Lagonda san. I wanted them to be part of the room decoration not an add on. Here is a side angle.


View attachment 61273

I will keep doing what Mike did with his room. A bit here a bit there. I will experiment with his use of cloth on hard surface too. Expect to take a year or so. In the picture, behind the Studer I have a brown 3 meter tall absorber standing. I will eventually remove them (there is another one on opposite wall.) I experimented replacing with another diffuser, the sound did open up a bit more to the side.

The removal of absorbers made the room more lively and flood back my room with sonic info that was suck out. Using wood took the brittles off my highs. Cymbal crash, percussion instrument have better resolution, snap, as if you hear from tape vs vinyl.

However, the image, placement, the ease and effortlessness of sound actually are improved by realigning my horns. I was doing this with my tone arm guy first using pink noise playing left and right channel individually. This revealed that the noise beaming from the top and mid horn of my left and right speakers were one side higher one side lower. In other words I was hearing pink noise from left speaker directly beaming to my left ear but I had to stand up 7" to hear a direct pitch on my right ear. We then use laser beam to guide the horn position to my ears and adjusted them accordingly. I still need to fine tune the angle more because the damn horns are very heavy and I am short. I had to hold up my arms supporting each horn while my tone arm guy adjusting and locking up the angle from behind the horn. Too much for my back. We could have done it more precise if I used two more men and I was just sitting at my listening chair pointing finger what to do. I also toed out my right speaker to the same angle of left one. My room is L-shape. There is no equal wall on the right of my listening position. So Ralph my speaker designer toed in the right speaker to compensate when we initially made installation. Imo it sounds much better now and I just need to dial the volume knob of my right Lamm pre one notch higher. Simpler the better.

View attachment 61279

You look at the above picture closely you will see a green laser beam going across from the right gold plated TAD tweeter to the left. The one on the left is positioned below the beam. So this means my left speaker is standing a little lower than my right speaker. I don't know if this has any consequence to the sound but I will find way to adjust later. The speaker weighs like a ton.

Anyway, it is an on going process and does not cost much. It only costed me $100 to hire a tone arm guy but the pay off is much more than changing a cartridge.

Tang

Tang, I read this and think I am reading my own words about discovery. As I reflect, I now realize just how little I know, and how much there is to learn. I feel like I am throwing everything out the window and starting fresh. Gear seems only a small part of it, and yet, gear is what we all talk about.

Ked's visits and reports and videos are about gear, and great recordings. I would love to learn what observations he has made about set up and its role in the overall sound he hears from his audio travels. HIs travel logs are too focused on equipment and compares. They need some diffusion to get the bigger picture.

 

[PeterA]

enjoy the journey, my friend.

for me it was the most rewarding time of my music loving life. many discoveries and beautiful surprises. and as you say, it cost almost nothing. i still get a positive glow when i think about it.

This is the joy and where the real learning takes place. Buying gear is fun too, but that doesn't cost almost nothing.

 

[christoph]

I am just a dumb audiophile who know no technical stuff Jeff. I just know how I want my system to sound. So, I had my acoustician sat, listened with me and I pointed exactly where the abnormalities were in particular section of instrument being played, cymbals, triangle, piano high keys, etc. Those were pretty much high frequency reflective distortions from glass windows. (This was after I identified that my absorber panels were sucking out musical info.) He then went back and used his software to calculate the shape of diffuser to have the effective range of 800hz to around 4K hz. with center frequency of 2K hz. The panels are made of teak wood. You see three strips of panel on the wall. They are not one piece. Each strip is actually comes in three sections put together so that I have a possibility to remove them after my big heavy bass horn is put in front of them. I can remove just the lowest section to clear space for bass horn too if I want (Maybe this answer Folsom's question). Here is a close up picture. I am sorry I cannot answer technical question. And yes we did in-room measurement before the diffusers were made. I just didn't bother looking.

View attachment 61286

Congrats to the progress on your journey to even better soundquality
Did the acoustician say over what frequency band your pretty black diffusor works?
Probabaly a LOT narrower than the new pretty brown ones