Zero Distortion: Tango Time

[NorthStar]

In these videos the Balfinger is really impressive. Plucks, range, the strength in those plucks, dynamics, whole top to bottom body seems excellent. I found the TT the least then realized he was playing the Opus. So I did a comparison of the Balfinger to the Vdh video from earlier. So that video is excellent too. It is quite surprising how the Opus, while usually just a different sounding cart sometimes better in some aspects, seems to sound less in these videos.

You and I agree on the tape (Ballfinger) being the most impressive, best music reproduction, above the TT AS2000/Opus1 (vinyl) and above the other tape deck combo (A820/Doshi).

And we both agree with everything else you've just said above in your quote.
It's a good sign, from the stars above.

* Ballfinger ... with two "l"s.

?? The A820/Doshi, after more listening is superior to the TT. ...Fresher ears today.

#1 = Ballfinger
#2 = A820/Doshi
#3 = AS2000/Opus1

My final verdict, for what it's worth right here on my hiend.
Anyone can say anything about music YouTube videos but Tango's music videos they give me the closest glimpse short of being there with him having tea with chocolate mints.

 

[Folsom]

Some questioned about quality of my tape setup. So here we go again. I got the Ballfinger into my system. The machine has 60 hrs on it. There should not be any question of condition of tape head or its alignment. I also include another video using vinyl. This time the Opus1 is in play instead of Master Sig. Hear it yourself.

Ballfinger

AS2000/Opus1

A820/Doshi

I can't say anything about the three because my brain instantly starts doing anything else than listening to them... Not sure why, I have some guitar flamenco stuff...

 

[awsmone]

Some questioned about quality of my tape setup. So here we go again. I got the Ballfinger into my system. The machine has 60 hrs on it. There should not be any question of condition of tape head or its alignment. I also include another video using vinyl. This time the Opus1 is in play instead of Master Sig. Hear it yourself.

Ballfinger

AS2000/Opus1

A820/Doshi

I have listen to these three clips 3 x on two different systems

my take on this is the turntable and a820 sound much more like from the same master
my impression of the Ballinger version is it seems to have completely different balance to the other two

its very impressive repro and recording
it seems louder and more forward in the mix, and frankly more avidity making the other two sound more like recordings

i am not sure one can draw much not knowing the provenance of the versions

just so I am not getting confused the tape played on the a820 was different from that of the Ballinger?

i liked all three not so much best as different colour

 

[Al Stewart]

Can you please clarify whether the same tape is being used with both reel to reel players? And can you please clarify what phono preamp is being used with the Ballfinger?
Thanks

 

[Tango]

Hi Awsmone,

The tape that was played on both Studer and Ballfinger is the same tape. The Ballfinger has its own builtin phono... no external phono was used. The vinyl of the same album is an ORG45. I have been listening tape vs vinyl intensively the past few days. I do have quite a few tapes and vinyls of the same albums. My take on this particular Studer vs Ballfinger vs AS2000 is there is not a clear winner. The Ballfinger beats the Studer with Doshi in the clarity, sharpness and the treble. The Studer/Doshi beats the Ballfinger on ambient cues, tiny micro info and powerful dynamic slam. Funny, the Studer with less clarity and less sweet highs some how can portray the effervescent of string vibrating or cymbal ringing (on different music) better than the Ballfinger. The video could not capture this. The AS2000 with both Opus1 and Master Sig beats both Studer and Ballfinger on "fool you real" factor. This fool you real, you have to be in the room to sense it. I am talking the kind of little cues of sound, the shift, the movement, the contrast of different guitarists playing that catch my ears when I was reading financial summary and made me twitched my head to listen in surprise. It is the feeling as if you were paying attention reading newspaper and then heard a small thing in the room, you thought something is there. Transparency of tt front is no less if not more than the Ballfinger to say it conservatively. I could hear "into the space between" instruments or sound even better with tt. But both tape machines beat the tt with fuller sound, definitely more ambient cues, just more info on tapes. This makes me think that when the sound engineer at ORG remastered this album to vinyl to 45, he put darkness into the back ground and make the sound of obvious things more shine while in the process wash off back ground info so there is like a dark narrow space you can hear into between sound. Tape also has fuller beefier tone than this vinyl.

I also learn from this album that it is a good album to use for tuning your vta. If you dont get your vta right, the guitarists on the left and right would sound a bit homogeneous. But if you get it right you will enjoy each guitarist playing with great contrast in pace, improvisation, distinct playing character. Basically you don't just hear but experience two guys going at their guitar in their own way distinctively on left and right. And this coming from vinyl. Amazing.

 

[Al Stewart]

Tango, thank you for this detailed report. I'm always interested in the difference between the "in the room" person report and the "recorded presentation" from the room.

 

[awsmone]

Hi Awsmone,

The tape that was played on both Studer and Ballfinger is the same tape. The Ballfinger has its own builtin phono... no external phono was used. The vinyl of the same album is an ORG45. I have been listening tape vs vinyl intensively the past few days. I do have quite a few tapes and vinyls of the same albums. My take on this particular Studer vs Ballfinger vs AS2000 is there is not a clear winner. The Ballfinger beats the Studer with Doshi in the clarity, sharpness and the treble. The Studer/Doshi beats the Ballfinger on ambient cues, tiny micro info and powerful dynamic slam. Funny, the Studer with less clarity and less sweet highs some how can portray the effervescent of string vibrating or cymbal ringing (on different music) better than the Ballfinger. The video could not capture this. The AS2000 with both Opus1 and Master Sig beats both Studer and Ballfinger on "fool you real" factor. This fool you real, you have to be in the room to sense it. I am talking the kind of little cues of sound, the shift, the movement, the contrast of different guitarists playing that catch my ears when I was reading financial summary and made me twitched my head to listen in surprise. It is the feeling as if you were paying attention reading newspaper and then heard a small thing in the room, you thought something is there. Transparency of tt front is no less if not more than the Ballfinger to say it conservatively. I could hear "into the space between" instruments or sound even better with tt. But both tape machines beat the tt with fuller sound, definitely more ambient cues, just more info on tapes. This makes me think that when the sound engineer at ORG remastered this album to vinyl to 45, he put darkness into the back ground and make the sound of obvious things more shine while in the process wash off back ground info so there is like a dark narrow space you can hear into between sound. Tape also has fuller beefier tone than this vinyl.

I also learn from this album that it is a good album to use for tuning your vta. If you dont get your vta right, the guitarists on the left and right would sound a bit homogeneous. But if you get it right you will enjoy each guitarist playing with great contrast in pace, improvisation, distinct playing character. Basically you don't just hear but experience two guys going at their guitar in their own way distinctively on left and right. And this coming from vinyl. Amazing.

Thanks Tang

for comprehensive answer

it had been my experience of tape that’s its a meatier sound, like the midrange has more data points

to me the a820 and TT were closer to each other in balance the Ballinger quite different

i have listened another 6 times at a slightly lower level which makes the things u describe more obvious my bad

the ballfinger seems more forward but flatter with little ambience compared with other two

the TT has more ambience and micro detail and the soundboard of the guitar is warmer

the A820 is close to the TT

it has less body of the guitar than the TT and less ambience but more than the Ballfinger

only when they stamp the foot and it resonates thru the floor and room are both tapes better

hmmm very interesting , who needs tape lol

 

[NorthStar]

Tang, that's an excellent summary.

* Did you try to read financial summary while the Ballfinger is on, rotating the tape?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Some questioned about quality of my tape setup. So here we go again. I got the Ballfinger into my system.

Ballfinger



I go away for a few days after Christmas and a week later it’s Christmas all over again for you?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Thanks for the report.
We have to keep in mind that the studer is likely to miss some high freq still until proper calibration.
For what its worth via headphones i can clearly hear the vinyl sounds different..
Good that the stock ballfinger can keep up .

But a real mastertape should still be easily distingquisble
May be some other tapeheads can respond


Ps who needs tape??? Easy handling

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thank you, Tang, first for posting the videos, and second, much more importantly to me personally, for your personal analysis, comparing and contrasting the sonic results.

I may be in the minority, but I still do not at all believe in listening to videos to assess a high-end audio system. I put much more faith in your individual, personal, subjective direct impressions and analysis than I do in listening to these videos myself.

Would you please elaborate on the difference in treble performance between the Studer + Doshi and the Ballfinger? The Ballfinger high frequencies are sweeter but also sharper?

 

[NorthStar]

Ron, we don't assess Tang's sound system and sources from the videos, we assess the sounds we hear from the videos by our own sound systems @ home or headphones.
We are realistic and practical, we use what is shared to us...Tang cannot afford to buy everyone a return airfare ticket with room service from the hotel.

His description with words on top of his music videos help us to be closer to his state.

His music videos for me are a much better addition than none.
And he's excellent @ it.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, we don't assess Tang's sound system and sources from the videos, we assess the sounds we hear from the videos by our own sound systems @ home or headphones.
We are realistic and practical, we use what is shared to us...Tang cannot afford to buy everyone a return airfare ticket with room service from the hotel.

His description with words on top of his music videos help us to be closer to his state.

His music videos for me are a much better addition than none.
And he's excellent @ it.

Bob, if the videos work for you, that’s great. I did not intend to initiate a relitigation of that topic. I only meant to say that they don’t work for me.

Tang certainly is careful about recording the videos and great about posting the videos. I have come to trust Tang’s ears, and his personal impressions are more valuable and informative for me personally than are the videos.

 

[bonzo75]

I only meant to say that they don’t work for me.

.

You only meant to say that you are too stubborn to try

 

[bonzo75]

Ron, as moderator I would suggest listening to all of Tang's videos you never know what he might put in them. You know how he is

 

[the sound of Tao]

Ron, as moderator I would suggest listening to all of Tang's videos you never know what he might put in them. You know how he is

Lol

 

[Tango]

Thank you, Tang, first for posting the videos, and second, much more importantly to me personally, for your personal analysis, comparing and contrasting the sonic results.

I may be in the minority, but I still do not at all believe in listening to videos to assess a high-end audio system. I put much more faith in your individual, personal, subjective direct impressions and analysis than I do in listening to these videos myself.

Would you please elaborate on the difference in treble performance between the Studer + Doshi and the Ballfinger? The Ballfinger high frequencies are sweeter but also sharper?

Hi Ron,

Videos are just supplement. I describe sound I hear in my system when someone ask me question. I don't want to write ahead and lead people to hear. Video can be very useful to help describe more tangibly what people in the room hear. Good writers can describe sound so beautifully making the reader imagine how wonderful sound it could be. They are talent at that. But do you really know their reference level? You never even heard his system. Their reference could be mediocre to me or you, but they describe the sound from their system so damn wonderful with their gifted writing skill. Me, Ked and Gian share videos almost everyday. On videos that one of us was there, the other two could actually describe the sound from video and cross check with the one who was there. More often than not our comments were consistent of what one of us in that room heard. Three of us has different preferences but we have the reference point at pretty much the same level. So video using as suppliment can be very useful tool when you do comparison and to screen what interesting and what not vaguely. I am not trying to convince anyone the merits of video. This is just my opinion. We all have our ways.

Regardin the tone of my A820+Doshi. It is warmer and more organic than the Ballfinger, A820 with its own phono card and the ATR102. I had all of them in my room listening extensively. Imagine a stereo with tone adjustable feature. The tone my A820+Doshi is as if the Ballfinger has the tone adjustable knobs and you tone down your treble adjustment knob and turn the bass adjustment knob up one tick pass the middle. I also think the clarity and treble of Ballfinger come with a degree of thinness. If you listen to the Scheherazade videos below (I know you wont do that Ron. But some of us might.) Listen to the triangle and the cymbals. The Studer+Doshi has that charming effervescent tailend of ringing, but the Ballfinger gives just a harder treble with little tailend. The presentation of Studer+Doshi also go deeper where as the Ballfinger more upclose as a few friends mentioned commented. On orchestra I like the presentation of Studer+ Doshi. On high impact crescendothe Studer+Dosihi just make this earth shaking majestic powerful sound, but not the same level with Ballfinger. And you get the sense of hall more from Studer+Doshi. But as some said my Studer head alignment has problem. Is there really a problem? I don't know. But if I don't make any comparison videos someone might just say it already sounds nice. See the videos wont let me bullshit.

Ballfinger

Studer/Doshi

 

[awsmone]

I prefer this piece as I don’t know anything about modern stuff

to me they Are again quite different

I will say the BALLGINGER everything is above the navel
the A820 it’s centred below the navel

but on this track I could really hear the depth of sound stage and the percussion trails were exquisite hmmm

me likey

I want to ask a dumb question

are the phase the same?

on the Studer I get great depth
on the Ballinger it almost projects out from the speakers

tonalLy I thought the differences less pronounced some timbres were better on one or the other not so clear cut

 

[microstrip]

(...) Regardin the tone of my A820+Doshi. It is warmer and more organic than the Ballfinger, A820 with its own phono card and the ATR102. I had all of them in my room listening extensively. Imagine a stereo with tone adjustable feature. The tone my A820+Doshi is as if the Ballfinger has the tone adjustable knobs and you tone down your treble adjustment knob and turn the bass adjustment knob up one tick pass the middle. I also think the clarity and treble of Ballfinger come with a degree of thinness. If you listen to the Scheherazade videos below (I know you wont do that Ron. But some of us might.) Listen to the triangle and the cymbals. The Studer+Doshi has that charming effervescent tailend of ringing, but the Ballfinger gives just a harder treble with little tailend. The presentation of Studer+Doshi also go deeper where as the Ballfinger more upclose as a few friends mentioned commented. On orchestra I like the presentation of Studer+ Doshi. On high impact crescendothe Studer+Dosihi just make this earth shaking majestic powerful sound, but not the same level with Ballfinger. And you get the sense of hall more from Studer+Doshi. But as some said my Studer head alignment has problem. Is there really a problem? I don't know. But if I don't make any comparison videos someone might just say it already sounds nice. See the videos wont let me bullshit.

Dear Tango,

I believe your words - my main question concerning the videos is that they show such large differences between the tape machines that I doubt on their value to show anything to listeners, other then entertainement. I have listened and was terrified with the huge tonal differences. It looks like you are using a very expensive equalizer in the tape chains.

Please look at the accumulated spectra of just the opening bars - the first 10 seconds, just the 10-1000Hz bandwith (Ballfinger on top). It is not just head alignment surely.

BTW, anyone can repeat my measurements - just download the free analyzer at https://www.zeitnitz.eu/scope_en and run the frequency tool using the video sound as input. Using the dB scale was also very interesting. Probably our WBF tape experts will diagnose the tape reproduction differences better than me.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Now the ballfinger as well its a new machine , are you sure this cheap internet thing is correct??
I don t think that he has an equalizer in the system , keep them coming Tang
I think I m gonna open a thread in the R2R forums this weekend where one can show a uploaded reel to reel system sound .
First will be Studer B 62 versus Telefunken M15 A