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Belt Drive vs Direct Drive and which one?

Mike Lavigne

Mike Lavigne

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i think the CS Port TAT2M2 with any number of different arms should be on your list. high mass string drive, low flow, low pressure air float platter, can be air bearing linear tracker. beautiful build quality and elegance.

definitely in your price range. a few places to demo it in Europe.

takes a step 'beyond' in musicality. i own and love the big brother CS Port LFT1.
 
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skinnyfla

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Mike Lavigne said:
i think the CS Port TAT2M2 with any number of different arms should be on your list. high mass string drive, low flow, low pressure air float platter, can be air bearing linear tracker. beautiful build quality and elegance.

definitely in your price range. a few places to demo it in Europe.

takes a step 'beyond' in musicality. i own and love the big brother CS Port LFT1.
Click to expand...
...never heard of them - sounds great - will put em on my list, cheers
 
bonzo75

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skinnyfla said:
… yes, I own and have lived with the Brinkmann LaGrange (incl. Rönt II) for the last 10 years… just feel it may be time for a change… something new would have to be significantly better or different… I doubt the Taurus will be much better than the LaGrange - if I should stay with Brinkmann it would have to be the Balance…
Click to expand...

the balance is better than the LaG, but for your rock only requirement not necessarily the best. I really like that table and usually don’t see a point in paying beyond the used price of a balance. If you match a good arm and cart on it then the money can do into records.

that said, it is great for classical and jazz. For rock, a Garrard 401 would suffice. With a Dava.
 
Argonaut

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@bonzo75 … the motor upgrade does rather close the subjective gap between itself and the newer Balance … I wasn’t even aware of the additional update beyond that mentioned by @skinnyfla
 
bonzo75

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Argonaut said:
@bonzo75 … the motor upgrade does rather close the subjective gap between itself and the newer Balance … I wasn’t even aware of the additional update beyond that mentioned by @skinnyfla
Click to expand...

the Sonia motor upgrade was also for the balance
 
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Bonesy Jonesy

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skinnyfla said:
Yeah, the Stabi R is actually the most affordable on my list - and that quite by far. But for reasons I can`t explain it`s been on my mind for a long long time. I actually really like the design (reminds me of earlier Micro Seikis). Also everythig I read about it sounds as if it would fit my personal taste soundwise. While the Stabi M is supposed to be more resolving, tha Stabi R is supposed to play very powerful, round, strong bass and very musical - some actually say the M is more analytical and "high end" in that sense, but the R is more musical.

At the other end of budget lies the most expensive, the TechDAS - again similar to older Micro Seiki - but there is so much "technical" stuff involved that it gets me worried what will happen in case of needed service. Also more on the "soft" side and not as powerful as the R from what I read...

The ones in between - well, AF V I think not - then rather stretch to the II or go with the Stabi R. Leaving the other options, including a direct drive... but then again the Stabi R is supposed to be the ideal mix between a DD and a BD (as @Croc999 points out with regard to the technical side)...

... so yeah, the Stabi R has a lot going for it... save money, buy more wine or records... sounds fine to me too...

... but I`m still making up my mind between the listed TTs - really unsure where things will end...
Click to expand...
The Kuzma Stabi R is a great TT especially with a matching Kuzma Tonearm.
I heard it matched with the Kuzma 4Point 14" and a Kuzma CAR50 cartridge in an overall £120+k system last year. The overall system sound was fantastic.
I think for it's performance vs it's cost it is the best value for money in the Kuzma TT range.
And you can buy it in multiple arm board configurations with up to 4 tonearms fitted and varying plinth finishes which are both great bonuses.
It's a TT you can set-up and then forget and which will last you for many years....and maybe it being your last TT you will ever need to purchase.
Use it with the Kuzma Outer Platter Ring and the Kuzma screw down Spindle Clamp and you don't need a vacuum platter like Techdas etc. either along with the advantage of not worrying about air compressors etc.
 
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PeterA

PeterA

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Mike Lavigne said:
i think the CS Port TAT2M2 with any number of different arms should be on your list. high mass string drive, low flow, low pressure air float platter, can be air bearing linear tracker. beautiful build quality and elegance.

definitely in your price range. a few places to demo it in Europe.

takes a step 'beyond' in musicality. i own and love the big brother CS Port LFT1.
Click to expand...



Here’s a fascinating thread about additional “beyond”turntables:https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/reference-turntable-the-step-beyond.17788/
 
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skinnyfla

skinnyfla

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Bonesy Jonesy said:
The Kuzma Stabi R is a great TT especially with a matching Kuzma Tonearm.
I heard it matched with the Kuzma 4Point 14" and a Kuzma CAR50 cartridge in an overall £120+k system last year. The overall system sound was fantastic.
I think for it's performance vs it's cost it is the best value for money in the Kuzma TT range.
And you can buy it in multiple arm board configurations with up to 4 tonearms fitted and varying plinth finishes which are both great bonuses.
It's a TT you can set-up and then forget and which will last you for many years....and maybe it being your last TT you will ever need to purchase.
Use it with the Kuzma Outer Platter Ring and the Kuzma screw down Spindle Clamp and you don't need a vacuum platter like Techdas etc. either along with the advantage of not worrying about air compressors etc.
Click to expand...
... didn`t know there was the option with the outer ring and the screw down... interesting...
 
skinnyfla

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Bonesy Jonesy

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skinnyfla said:
... didn`t know there was the option with the outer ring and the screw down... interesting...
Click to expand...
Yes, Kuzma now make a lighter (approx. 1.3kg) version of the Outer Ring Clamp that can be used for all of their TTs.
In the past they only made one for the Stabi M and XL TTs which was heavier (approx. 2kg). But they stopped making it some time ago and only make the lighter one now (which of course can also be used for the Stabi M and XL DC).

Check out the Kuzma brochure which covers most of their TT, Tonearm & accessory products;
Brochure-Kuzma.pdf (technologyfactory.eu)
 
tima

tima

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Belt Drive vs Direct Drive and which one?​

You will get lots of responses advocating for a particular turntable.

Before getting trapped going back and forth from this brand to that brand and various models, consider your own inquiry: Belt Drive vs. Direct Drive. The question of topology. Consider answering that question -- then, consider which one. The only respondent who lightly touched on this thus far was bonzo by asking you to what type of music do you listen.

Attached is a paper (pdf) by Peter Moncreiff that is purportedly about a famous older table, the Rockport Sirius III -- no longer available. But that table is not really coverred in the write-up, with the author saying he would do that in part 2. What is covered in considerable detail are: i) what is the job a turntable is supposed to do, and ii) a careful examination of the topologies of belt drive and direct drive in fulfilling the turntable's purpose.

It won't tell you what to buy. But it will give an understanding of the issues associated to each topology. Some of those issues are dealt with through technical advances since the paper was written, but the issues themselves are fundamental to turntable design and implementation. I found the paper highly informative.
 

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skinnyfla

skinnyfla

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tima said:

Belt Drive vs Direct Drive and which one?​

You will get lots of responses advocating for a particular turntable.

Before getting trapped going back and forth from this brand to that brand and various models, consider your own inquiry: Belt Drive vs. Direct Drive. The question of topology. Consider answering that question -- then, consider which one. The only respondent who lightly touched on this thus far was bonzo by asking you to what type of music do you listen.

Attached is a paper (pdf) by Peter Moncreiff that is purportedly about a famous older table, the Rockport Sirius III -- no longer available. But that table is not really coverred in the write-up, with the author saying he would do that in part 2. What is covered in considerable detail are: i) what is the job a turntable is supposed to do, and ii) a careful examination of the topologies of belt drive and direct drive in fulfilling the turntable's purpose.

It won't tell you what to buy. But it will give an understanding of the issues associated to each topology. Some of those issues are dealt with through technical advances since the paper was written, but the issues themselves are fundamental to turntable design and implementation. I found the paper highly informative.
Click to expand...
... well, that`s really helpful and then again not at all... ;-)... very informative but leaves me thinking all are bad solutions but the one you can`t buy anymore... anyhow - from what little I understand, maybe the Belt Drive is the better solution...
 
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Tangram

Tangram

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tima said:

Belt Drive vs Direct Drive and which one?​

You will get lots of responses advocating for a particular turntable.

Before getting trapped going back and forth from this brand to that brand and various models, consider your own inquiry: Belt Drive vs. Direct Drive. The question of topology. Consider answering that question -- then, consider which one. The only respondent who lightly touched on this thus far was bonzo by asking you to what type of music do you listen.

Attached is a paper (pdf) by Peter Moncreiff that is purportedly about a famous older table, the Rockport Sirius III -- no longer available. But that table is not really coverred in the write-up, with the author saying he would do that in part 2. What is covered in considerable detail are: i) what is the job a turntable is supposed to do, and ii) a careful examination of the topologies of belt drive and direct drive in fulfilling the turntable's purpose.

It won't tell you what to buy. But it will give an understanding of the issues associated to each topology. Some of those issues are dealt with through technical advances since the paper was written, but the issues themselves are fundamental to turntable design and implementation. I found the paper highly informative.
Click to expand...
Wow, that’s a lot of words. Reminds me of the Poison Scene from The Princess Bride (starting at 2:00):



I think a more compelling explanation would use less words and more figures - charts and diagrams - that measure what all those words describe. I’ve seen Moncrieff’s name before and assume he reached guru status in the audio world but 31 pages with nary a number in sight?
 
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Mike Lavigne

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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tima said:

Belt Drive vs Direct Drive and which one?​

You will get lots of responses advocating for a particular turntable.

Before getting trapped going back and forth from this brand to that brand and various models, consider your own inquiry: Belt Drive vs. Direct Drive. The question of topology. Consider answering that question -- then, consider which one. The only respondent who lightly touched on this thus far was bonzo by asking you to what type of music do you listen.

Attached is a paper (pdf) by Peter Moncreiff that is purportedly about a famous older table, the Rockport Sirius III -- no longer available. But that table is not really coverred in the write-up, with the author saying he would do that in part 2. What is covered in considerable detail are: i) what is the job a turntable is supposed to do, and ii) a careful examination of the topologies of belt drive and direct drive in fulfilling the turntable's purpose.

It won't tell you what to buy. But it will give an understanding of the issues associated to each topology. Some of those issues are dealt with through technical advances since the paper was written, but the issues themselves are fundamental to turntable design and implementation. I found the paper highly informative.
Click to expand...
i owned the direct drive Rockport Sirius III turntable for 9 years, great turntable. sold it when i got the Wave Kinetics NVS direct drive, which i still have now since 2011. i did sell my early (the first one) NVS 5 years ago and got a fresh build unit. later i added the CS Port belt (string) drive, and the Saskia model two idler. my goal was to own a high level belt drive, direct drive, and idler together and see for myself which tech i liked best.

even though i've upgraded my idler from the Saskia to the Esoteric T1 (a touch less magnetic drive idler), i still have all three drive technologies and enjoy each one. they are much more alike than different at this level of execution.

past a certain price point/level of execution....drive tech is not any particular hinderance/advantage in my experience. there are more important issues in the sonic performance equation.
 
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PeterA

PeterA

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Mike Lavigne said:
past a certain price point/level of execution....drive tech is not any hinderance/advantage in my experience. there are more important issues in the sonic performance equation.
Click to expand...

Mike, are you talking about more important issues in turntable design after a certain price point/level of execution, or something else? Could you please explain what you mean here?
 
Mike Lavigne

Mike Lavigne

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PeterA said:
Mike, are you talking about more important issues in turntable design after a certain price point/level of execution, or something else? Could you please explain what you mean here?
Click to expand...
i mean that getting caught up in only "one" proper approach to driving a turntable platter is wrong thinking, that a good/very good/great result is possible from all three fundamental approaches. turntables are packages of design choices and degrees of execution.....and drive dogma is only one of them.

not saying they all sound the same, or that everyone should agree about which is best. lots of good choices for the vinyl lover.

probably direct drive requires a higher level of execution to be successful than a belt or idler; more engineering and more expensive mechanicals. so at lower price points it's not as good unless you are dealing with vintage. you have to get past a certain level before direct drive reaches a high level compared to belts or idlers.

platter, bearing, and plinth design are similarly significant in ultimate turntable performance as drive choice.
 
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Audiohertz2

Audiohertz2

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I have never heard the level where DD beats Belt Drive (absolute for those who need it ) isolation and controlled resonances is everything when discussing TT’s ..

Regards
 
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PeterA

PeterA

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Mike Lavigne said:
i mean that getting caught up in only "one" proper approach to driving a turntable platter is wrong thinking, that a good/very good/great result is possible from all three fundamental approaches. turntables are packages of design choices and degrees of execution.....and drive dogma is only one of them.

not saying they all sound the same, or that everyone should agree about which is best. lots of good choices for the vinyl lover.

probably direct drive requires a higher level of execution to be successful than a belt or idler; more engineering and more expensive mechanicals. so at lower price points it's not as good unless you are dealing with vintage. you have to get past a certain level before direct drive reaches a high level compared to belts of idlers.

platter, bearing, and plinth design are similarly significant in ultimate turntable performance as drive choice.
Click to expand...

I agree that good results can be had with all types. But you were talking about other factors being more important than drive type. I was asking you about what you meant about the more important factors. Could you explain what those more important factors are and why they matter?
 
Mike Lavigne

Mike Lavigne

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PeterA said:
I agree that good results can be had with all types. But you were talking about other factors being more important than drive type. I was asking you about what you meant about the more important factors. Could you explain what those more important factors are and why they matter?
Click to expand...

:):):)

i'll answer you only to say than no design element exists in isolation. and there is a rainbow of approaches involving the whole design. change the degree of execution or precision of any of those elements and the balance of the design is altered. lower the mass of the AS-2000 platter and it's a different turntable. change the material of the plinth and arm boards and it's different. and that is just for starters. so the fact its a string drive is only one part of the design. degrees of execution matter. David's new super AS-2000 will be different than yours in various ways. but will still be string drive i assume.

Fremer is now reviewing the new magnetic idler drive Wilson Benesch turntable. i'm hearing very positive feedback. if he thinks it's the best will it be because of it being 'not' direct drive, or 'not' a belt/string drive? not really......it will be because of all the little design choices. not fundamentally drive dogma.
 
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Tangram

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PeterA said:
I agree that good results can be had with all types. But you were talking about other factors being more important than drive type. I was asking you about what you meant about the more important factors. Could you explain what those more important factors are and why they matter?
Click to expand...
I’m no expert (understatement) but my turntable guru, Don Corby at Corby’s Audio near Toronto is, and while he’s primarily a belt drive guy, he maintains that above a certain price/quality, the actual table is less a factor than the arm and cartridge. Now, what that price/quality level is I won’t hazard a guess but for his personal use he leans heavily towards the top offerings of established brands like Kuzma and Clearaudio, so I suspect it’s still pretty high.
 
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