darTZeel out of business?

[Elberoth]

A friend of mine bought dartzeel from Aliexpress, that was supposed to be 100% clone for kicks.

Contrary to what sellers from China claim (his was supposed to be the latest 2023 design, which was a 101% clone, in a generic box). The amp wasn't a true clone - without even digging into the circuit differencies you could tell they were not able to make the circuit stable (dart is a very unussual design, without a DC sevo) thay had to add a DC servo circuit to make it work. Without it, the amp was most likely unstable.

I didn't have any of my past real dartzeels on hand so had to rely on my aural memory (which as we know can be deceptive), but sound wise the clone was really nothing special or memorable. My friend ended up using it in his summer home with some $500 Elac speakers, which is proably what it is good for.

 

[Elberoth]

They jhave just posted a statement on FB:

Dartzeel Audio

Dartzeel Audio. 3,172 likes · 15 talking about this. Master of high-end amplifier design.

www.facebook.com

DEAR ALL
To those who want to know the truth, it is quite simple:
For several years now, the extreme High-End market has been in turmoil, with many prestigious brands closing down - fortunately, most of them have been able to restart - due to several factors, of which I will only mention a few.
The uncertain global economic and political climate has drawn attention away from entertainment.
But above all, the race to offer the most expensive product, claiming it’s better, while giving ever larger discounts to end users.
This extreme High-End market, whose noble and honorable purpose at its beginnings was to offer music lovers the best possible reproduction quality, has turned into a mass market, comparable to the souks of Marrakech - which I personally love, but for a different purpose - where the highest discount has become the main focus.
This trend, though not new, is now rotting the extreme High-End market and is destroying the industry.
I, Hervé Delétraz, founder and creator of the darTZeel brand, have decided that this business model no longer aligns with my vision of Extreme High End.
Not only will the darTZeel brand continue to exist, but it will also change its paradigm by focusing on new concepts, which for now will remain undisclosed for obvious reasons.
What you need to know now are the following:
1. darTZeel is more alive than ever, and legendary customer service remains unchanged.
2. Current production of the NHB, CTH, and LHC series will now be made only on demand.
For existing customers: It is strongly advised not to sell off your darTZeel equipment on AudiogoN or elsewhere, because from now on, owning a darTZeel instrument is an investment.
3. A new line of instruments, aimed at a broader audience, is currently under study. Stay tuned!
darTZeel instruments are made in Geneva to last forever. Period.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I just received from John Stone of Dartzeel America this reply to my email to him:

The company has a deep passion and love for its clients. It is restructuring to make new products and streamline efficiency.

While all companies are susceptible to business dynamics such as closure, darTZeel at present has no intention of closing.

We remain committed to supporting every instrument ever produced in legendary darTZeel fashion.

In North America we have a healthy dealership base to support you. I highly encourage utilizing these passionate, skilled professionals.

www.dartzeelamerica.com

They say there is no negative press and what a shining example this has been for me. I’ve been flooded with calls and emails. Sure some dialog of concerns around value, yet overwhelmingly around the wellbeing of the wonderful company and man who has brought it to us.

So grateful for the outpouring of support.

 

[Lagonda]

They jhave just posted a statement on FB:

Dartzeel Audio

Dartzeel Audio. 3,172 likes · 15 talking about this. Master of high-end amplifier design.

www.facebook.com

DEAR ALL
To those who want to know the truth, it is quite simple:
For several years now, the extreme High-End market has been in turmoil, with many prestigious brands closing down - fortunately, most of them have been able to restart - due to several factors, of which I will only mention a few.
The uncertain global economic and political climate has drawn attention away from entertainment.
But above all, the race to offer the most expensive product, claiming it’s better, while giving ever larger discounts to end users.
This extreme High-End market, whose noble and honorable purpose at its beginnings was to offer music lovers the best possible reproduction quality, has turned into a mass market, comparable to the souks of Marrakech - which I personally love, but for a different purpose - where the highest discount has become the main focus.
This trend, though not new, is now rotting the extreme High-End market and is destroying the industry.
I, Hervé Delétraz, founder and creator of the darTZeel brand, have decided that this business model no longer aligns with my vision of Extreme High End.
Not only will the darTZeel brand continue to exist, but it will also change its paradigm by focusing on new concepts, which for now will remain undisclosed for obvious reasons.
What you need to know now are the following:
1. darTZeel is more alive than ever, and legendary customer service remains unchanged.
2. Current production of the NHB, CTH, and LHC series will now be made only on demand.
For existing customers: It is strongly advised not to sell off your darTZeel equipment on AudiogoN or elsewhere, because from now on, owning a darTZeel instrument is an investment.
3. A new line of instruments, aimed at a broader audience, is currently under study. Stay tuned!
darTZeel instruments are made in Geneva to last forever. Period.

He forgot to mention the financial cost of winning the favors of influencers and top reviewers, just offering discounts does not win the game alone Just as self serving as Mark Levinsons statement about the pricing of high end audio. Let's see how this plays out

 

[ptman]

Companies who are successful and premium priced, when their business hits a challenge, are tasked with the decision to sell a number of products at a listed retail price, or sell proportionally more at a proportionally lower retail price. Internal costs per unit rise with producing more units (if the business is optimized) and that becomes a driver. Several high-end companies (YG Acoustics, Borreson, Aavik, DCS) have taken to introducing a "value" line of quality products, while retaining their upper-end product line. Sounds like DartZeel is taking the same approach.

If DartZeel has been running lean in their high-priced production, the movement to a higher-volume, lower priced business model requires careful consideration and planning.

 

[A-Line]

Hervé Delétraz is a arrogant jerk. How painful it must have been for him to have been informed by his accounting people that unless certain charges take place immediately that the company will sink. This type of arrogance has also affected dCS recently...just saying.

Just my opinion.

 

[Kingrex]

Sounds like Dartzeel is going to try and do what many have been asking for. Manufacture a top flight product for an affordable price.

 

[gleeds]

My long-time friend and colleague Herve is spot on in his observations regarding the audio industry's upper echelon. As a watch enthusiast, Herve's Swiss watch neighbors in Geneva face challenges in a consolidating sector, including:

- the high cost of parts acquisition and cost of manufacturing bespoke, low-volume products
- competing sales channels, e.g., authorized dealers, online retailers, and the second-hard market
- the increasing cost of reaching consumers
- non-existent trade association infrastructure
- cost and quality of most trade shows
- competition and cloning from Asian rim manufacturers
- a dearth of information that makes it easy to go down the proverbial rabbit hole and many others

As for Herve, DarTZeel is a company of impeccable integrity, abundant passion, and innovation. For those that own DarTZeel, you own a product of heirloom quality and an actual music machine. Since Jonathan Tinn's passing, I have not had a professional association with the Company. That said, I look forward to seeing what new products Herve has in store for us, and I am confident those offerings will continue to embody his commitment to music and excellence.

Good luck, my friend!

 

[Kingrex]

Hervé Delétraz is a arrogant jerk. How painful it must have been for him to have been informed by his accounting people that unless certain charges take place immediately that the company will sink. This type of arrogance has also affected dCS recently...just saying.

Just my opinion.

And Gryphon, Magico, Wilson, MSB, Wadax, Lampizator, Taiko, VAC, Acora etc etc etc.
Schiit is one of the few that has remained true to a very good product for a mass market budget.

 

[ssfas]

.

I'm a big fan of Mojo Audio and talk about it a lot. I have talked with Ben of Mojo extensivly about professional and personal topics. I'm also a big fan and distributor for Torus. I am also a big fan and talk a lot about First Sound. Emmanuel of First Sound has been to my house and shared food and coffee. I still have 0 knowledge about whether these companies will be here next week. I think it a farce to pander an idea the Herve called Mike and told Mike to sell his gear because he was throwing in the towel. Thats slander in my opinion.
Mike is a Dartzeel client who is generous enough to take his time and post over the years the evolution of his system so we can all see what it takes to implement a world class audio setup. That does not make him privy to and acting upon insider information. It makes him a benefit to the club.

Additionally, show me a audiophile that has relatively the same equipment list for 20 years. This hobby it built on flipping and flopping. Its almost odd Mike has held onto Dartzeel so long. My perception is Mcintosh and Conrad Johnson are held for the laung haul. Most others cycles through.

A good topic would be what brand has someone held onto for 20 plus years.

I only know two audiophiles personally. One of them I was with at university and when we started work he bought a top of the range Linn system. Besides tweaking his LP12 a bit, he didn't change his system until earlier this year, 40 years later.
Obviously he still has the LP12.

I had a system completely unchanged for 12 years. I bought a new system, from Linn, in 2010 because I moved from CD to streaming. I put together a new system for a newly built room over the last 3 years, but don't expect it to change until we sell the house in perhaps 10 years.

Flipping and flopping, as you call it, seems more about being interested in audio equipment as a hobby, rather than primarily as a means to enjoy good music reproduction at home.

 

[Bruce B]

They have just posted a statement on FB:

2. Current production of the NHB, CTH, and LHC series will now be made only on demand.
For existing customers: It is strongly advised not to sell off your darTZeel equipment on AudiogoN or elsewhere, because from now on, owning a darTZeel instrument is an investment.

Now that is funny !!

 

[DasguteOhr]

I'm not sure how you can tell anything from that ad. When you look at the detailed description, it says stuff like this: "the advantage is that it has a good transient response characteristics, known as one of the more bile than the bile machine bile flavor stone machine line". What the hell does this even mean? It's actually comical. For God's sake, use Google translate, man! The world is full of audiophiles who love bargains. But buying a darT knockoff that excels in making bile for $1500 is a bridge too far for anyone, even on this forum!

Nobody is forcing you to buy it, it is very well made, BNC + RCA/ xlr input, a sensible protection circuit is on board.
I know amplifiers that are much more expensive and sound much worse.
Pic

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sa5ede43cb0b14585b3e6d0f9c4e5ec35q.jpg_640x640Q90.jpg_.webp

 

[buzzlulu]

i mostly heard Dartzeel on Stenheim which im not a fan off .
I d have liked to hear them on magico S3 mk 2 or Wilson sasha / kharmas.

I demoed DarTZeel 8550 on newest Sashas - not bad and good enough of a demo to have me purchase the DartTZeel seperates. Then heard Dart on the latest Magico S3 - awful and the dealer concurred.
Demoed on Stenheim 3's and then 5SE's - I now own 5SE's

 

[Elliot G.]

My long-time friend and colleague Herve is spot on in his observations regarding the audio industry's upper echelon. As a watch enthusiast, Herve's Swiss watch neighbors in Geneva face challenges in a consolidating sector, including:

- the high cost of parts acquisition and cost of manufacturing bespoke, low-volume products
- competing sales channels, e.g., authorized dealers, online retailers, and the second-hard market
- the increasing cost of reaching consumers
- non-existent trade association infrastructure
- cost and quality of most trade shows
- competition and cloning from Asian rim manufacturers
- a dearth of information that makes it easy to go down the proverbial rabbit hole and many others

As for Herve, DarTZeel is a company of impeccable integrity, abundant passion, and innovation. For those that own DarTZeel, you own a product of heirloom quality and an actual music machine. Since Jonathan Tinn's passing, I have not had a professional association with the Company. That said, I look forward to seeing what new products Herve has in store for us, and I am confident those offerings will continue to embody his commitment to music and excellence.

Good luck, my friend!

Gary the high end watch business has never been better and a very poor analogy. There are so many facters with a watch that audio will never have , mainly you cant wear and show it off to your friends, and audio has virtually no status outside of a miniscule community. Some watches actually do appreciate in value and a watch doesn't become "obsolete" after all its still awatch and time is time. There is no audio brand like Patek or Rolex

 

[ssfas]

My long-time friend and colleague Herve is spot on in his observations regarding the audio industry's upper echelon. As a watch enthusiast, Herve's Swiss watch neighbors in Geneva face challenges in a consolidating sector, including:

- the high cost of parts acquisition and cost of manufacturing bespoke, low-volume products
- competing sales channels, e.g., authorized dealers, online retailers, and the second-hard market
- the increasing cost of reaching consumers
- non-existent trade association infrastructure
- cost and quality of most trade shows
- competition and cloning from Asian rim manufacturers
- a dearth of information that makes it easy to go down the proverbial rabbit hole and many others

As for Herve, DarTZeel is a company of impeccable integrity, abundant passion, and innovation. For those that own DarTZeel, you own a product of heirloom quality and an actual music machine. Since Jonathan Tinn's passing, I have not had a professional association with the Company. That said, I look forward to seeing what new products Herve has in store for us, and I am confident those offerings will continue to embody his commitment to music and excellence.

Good luck, my friend!

Watches are worse than audio. As you say, it often involves a long and expensive distribution food chain. Much of what you pay is paying for glossy magazines and sponsorship of endless tennis and golf tournaments.

I own one watch. It's a totally hand made work of art by Itay Noy. He has international distribution, but many customers come to his workshop and studio. It's a big part of the ownership experience. They are not hugely expensive, about $2,500 to $7,000 mostly and limited to 24 or 100 units per design. Some are one-off pieces.

ITAY NOY - Independent Timepiece Maker

Itay Noy is an independent timepiece maker – one of a few dozen throughout the world. Since 2000, he's been creating limited-edition, hand-crafted watches, one new collection every year. Hes studio is located in the old city of Jaffa, where each watch is assembled to order, by hand; He makes...

www.itay-noy.com

Itay does not use precious metals because they are necessary. I recently sold a solid gold Breguet that I inherited (I never wore it) and it was basically worth the weight of the gold. So it goes from being a watch to bullion.

Many high-end audio products could be a lot cheaper if the bling and distribution elements were rethought. Much of the lower end of the hifi market has already done this and therefore offers far better value for money.

p.s. Just read what the DartZeel guy posted. Makes sense to me. Sounds a bit frustrated.

I agree with @Kingrex, Mk2 will likely be dramatically cheaper and probably just as good. If it is successful, that could seriously hit existing product values. His "don't sell" warning sounds more like wanting to protect his brand value.

 

[Elliot G.]

If one really

Watches are worse than audio. As you say, it often involves a long and expensive distribution food chain. Much of what you pay is paying for glossy magazines and sponsorship of endless tennis and golf tournaments.

I own one watch. It's a totally hand made work of art by Itay Noy. He has international distribution, but many customers come to his workshop and studio. It's a big part of the ownership experience. They are not hugely expensive, about $2,500 to $7,000 mostly and limited to 24 or 100 units per design. Some are one-off pieces.

ITAY NOY - Independent Timepiece Maker

Itay Noy is an independent timepiece maker – one of a few dozen throughout the world. Since 2000, he's been creating limited-edition, hand-crafted watches, one new collection every year. Hes studio is located in the old city of Jaffa, where each watch is assembled to order, by hand; He makes...

www.itay-noy.com

Itay does not use precious metals because they are necessary. I recently sold a solid gold Breguet that I inherited (I never wore it) and it was basically worth the weight of the gold. So it goes from being a watch to bullion.

Many high-end audio products could be a lot cheaper if the bling and distribution elements were rethought. Much of the lower end of the hifi market has already done this and therefore offers far better value for money.

I dont know where you soldyour watch but there is an entire Industry that buys and sells preowned watches that is HUGE. Unless your watch was not in good shape the watch definelty had value above what you sold it for. I am sorry to say that but you are incorrect, I worked for a company for a few years that started that business and that company , having been sold a few times, went form a 30million dollar a year business to over 2 billion in the last 8-9 years. Try Watchbox and there are many others Delray Watch Supply, Secondtime etc. etc.
I would bet you would have gotten a lot more for the Brequet.
I sold all of my Patek watches at a huge profit.

Audio has so many issues that I could write a book and most of them lie directly at the feet of an industry that is impatient and under capitalized.

 

[Kingrex]

Audio has so many issues that I could write a book and most of them lie directly at the feet of an industry that is impatient and under capitalized.

What do you mean?

 

[Kingrex]

Flipping and flopping, as you call it, seems more about being interested in audio equipment as a hobby, rather than primarily as a means to enjoy good music reproduction at home.

Whatsbestforum is to me about the hobby of audio equipment. It has little to do with the appreciation of music. There are a couple threads where we show a album cover we are listening too. And many times the album content is about what plays well. Not about the musicians, the meaning of the music.

 

[A-Line]

Whatsbestforum is to me about the hobby of audio equipment. It has little to do with the appreciation of music. There are a couple threads where we show a album cover we are listening too. And many times the album content is about what plays well. Not about the musicians, the meaning of the music.

Sadly this is true. Most, if not all, hifi forums are mainly about the equipment and the buying and selling of that equipment with very little, if any, focus on the music itself.

Just my opinion.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Its also a bit because of the name of the Forum " Whats best ".

A lot of focus is on / discussions are about .... my sound is the best / most authentic / natural bla bla......