Grimm MU1 vs Aurender N30SA vs Taiko Audio

[fast.freight]

This seems like a real reach here based on how Ethernet works. It's not like your DAC is decoding your audio at the exact time it's transmitted across the Ethernet cable.
This is why "special" Ethernet cables are snake oil. The media player componentry will cache/buffer the file locally. In reality the song has probably buffered within a second or less, not "live streaming" across the cable.

The real issue here is how we as listeners discern changes or improvements. That is to say we hear them. You may want to measure them or read about them in a book, but audiophiles 'listen'. I would expect you can easily here the difference between an am radio and any decent system. Well, the same goes for many discerning quality digital form basic digital. We can hear it. The addition of a quality ethernet cable in the digital chain, especially just in front of your server, is easily heard by many. If you can not hear this we understand. Good for you and your budget. Be happy. But you do not seem happy. Is it because you can not hear what others can?

'This is classic audiophile marketing, just like Aurenders "double isolated LAN" port. It's such a joke, regardless of the quality and design of the amp/server design.

Classic audiophile marketing huh? I believe there are always some bad eggs, but this is such a stretch it is sad. Classic marketing is designed to make people aware of something they might appreciate and want to buy. You of course have choice as to how you spend your money. Some really do appreciate the best and are even willing to take small chances to get there.

As the old saying goes, "a fool and his money are easily parted".

Is it he fool who is happy with the better system or the fool who just talks about how it is not possible?

 

[PYP]

This seems like a real reach here based on how Ethernet works. It's not like your DAC is decoding your audio at the exact time it's transmitted across the Ethernet cable.
This is why "special" Ethernet cables are snake oil. The media player componentry will cache/buffer the file locally. In reality the song has probably buffered within a second or less, not "live streaming" across the cable.

This is classic audiophile marketing, just like Aurenders "double isolated LAN" port. It's such a joke, regardless of the quality and design of the amp/server design.

As the old saying goes, "a fool and his money are easily parted".

From personal experience, I have found that ethernet cables do affect the sound. For ethernet, this may simply be the result of the different grounding techniques used. If one accepts that copper ethernet transmits RFI/EMI, then a design meant to reduce or eliminate those distorting elements would be an improvement.

Like some other audiophiles, I have also experimented with passive filters meant to reduce RFI for ham radio operators. That made me a believer. Of course, there are passive designs meant to be used in audio and that is what I now use. A well-designed streamer will reduce the need for "better" cables and filters, but will not eliminate the need entirely (at least according to my ears).

Whether these audio solutions are worth the price, is decided by each buyer. Some of those buyers listen before they buy and that is an informed way to make any audio purchase.

 

[vert]

The media player componentry will cache/buffer the file locally. In reality the song has probably buffered within a second or less, not "live streaming" across the cable.

I had an Aurender N20 that cached the entire the track before playback. I wasn't able to distinguish between Qobuz and SSD file playback.

I also have a Lumin and it doesn't cache the entire track before playback. I'm certain it's much more sensitive to the network because of this.

However, I preferred the musicality of the Lumin. But I wished it had the caching functionality of the Aurender.

This essential caching feature is often not discussed when comparing high end streamers.

 

[Solartiger]

The double isolated LAN port is “just” noise isolation. In my setup with an Aurender N30SA (with double isolated LAN port) I don’t hear a difference between different Ethernet cables.

 

[vert]

The double isolated LAN port is “just” noise isolation. In my setup with an Aurender N30SA (with double isolated LAN port) I don’t hear a difference between different Ethernet cables.

Aurender caches the entire track before playback if you are streaming from Qobuz. This should make it more immune to network variables.

But there was a big benefit to noise levels using a Gigafoil with the Aurender, despite the "double isolated" LAN port.

 

[dminches]

Even if the tracks are cached there is still network activity which could affect the sound. The Extreme environment really improved when they added a router which put the Extreme on its own network.

 

[godofwealth]

Having been a long time member of the audiophile community for almost 40 years, I can say with complete confidence that audiophiles will find differences on pretty much anything you can name. Cables are of course par for the audiophile course and streamers have so many opportunities to throw more money at your system (audiophile Ethernet interfaces, USB cables, etc.). I’m waiting for some company to start marketing audiophile “air”, which you inject into your listening room before starting a listening session. This special air is cryogenically treated so that sound pressure waves are more easily transmitted!

 

[GSOphile]

Having been a long time member of the audiophile community for almost 40 years, I can say with complete confidence that audiophiles will find differences on pretty much anything you can name. Cables are of course par for the audiophile course and streamers have so many opportunities to throw more money at your system (audiophile Ethernet interfaces, USB cables, etc.). I’m waiting for some company to start marketing audiophile “air”, which you inject into your listening room before starting a listening session. This special air is cryogenically treated so that sound pressure waves are more easily transmitted!

I'm interested. Price? ;-)

 

[PYP]

Having been a long time member of the audiophile community for almost 40 years, I can say with complete confidence that audiophiles will find differences on pretty much anything you can name. Cables are of course par for the audiophile course and streamers have so many opportunities to throw more money at your system (audiophile Ethernet interfaces, USB cables, etc.). I’m waiting for some company to start marketing audiophile “air”, which you inject into your listening room before starting a listening session. This special air is cryogenically treated so that sound pressure waves are more easily transmitted!

do you hear differences in SQ depending upon the season (warm vs. cold)? How about differences in humidity?

 

[Skanda]

i take the view that the component is the most important. if someone prefers a taiko to an aurender i doubt an ethernet cable is going to make all the difference and if it does that is a questionable outcome. if someone chooses to add the taiko to their system they could certainly add ancillaries to make sure they are squeezing the best possible performance out of the component. imo, only power cables have made a big difference on components but i have only tested some and i've never found an amp cable combo (for example) that made one amp sound significantly better to me than another amp. i ran my taiko on a stock amazon power cable for about 6 months before ponying up for some TQ silver daimond power cables and i felt it brought out more performance but honestly sounded pretty great on the cheapo stock cable anyways.

let's keep this thread focused on the differences between the components themselves as anyone in the market likely has some nice cables they prefer and are curious about the differences between these 3 excellent streamers

 

[PYP]

i take the view that the component is the most important. if someone prefers a taiko to an aurender i doubt an ethernet cable is going to make all the difference and if it does that is a questionable outcome. if someone chooses to add the taiko to their system they could certainly add ancillaries to make sure they are squeezing the best possible performance out of the component.

completely agree about the component. Some streaming components seem to be more sensitive to upstream noise and therefore the total budget allocated would include consideration of the cost of the ancillaries, potentially such as routers, switches, LPS...

 

[Skanda]

i do have a software related question for the forum here - do any of these streamers support youtube music? I tend to use it while working and have found alot of great mixes that don't exist elsewhere. i can't get it running on my astell sp1000 player either...wish more of the higher end audiophile pieces would support youtube music...even through roon if needed

 

[abeidrov]

Yes, you can

i do have a software related question for the forum here - do any of these streamers support youtube music? I tend to use it while working and have found alot of great mixes that don't exist elsewhere. i can't get it running on my astell sp1000 player either...wish more of the higher end audiophile pieces would support youtube music...even through roon if needed

Yes, you can use airplay to stream YouTube videos to an Aurender from an Apple device.

 

[gfroman]

I switched from the Aurender N30 to the Taiko Audio Extreme and couldn't be happier.
Granted the Extreme wasn't the easiest to get implemented into my system, once everything was dialed in the music was glorious.
I also love the hands on help that Taiko employs with their users. They are relentless in continuing to improve their software with numerous updates throughout the year. The latest 3.0.2 Version 2.5 XDMS update is just incredible!
Probably better upgrade in audio quality than any cable change I have have done in years....

 

[caesar]

Taiko seems much heavier than Grimm, and likely has a bigger power supply, which should translate to bigger bass.

But Grimm is supposed to have the creme de la creme of upsampling algorithms in the industry. The usually milquetoast John Atkinson of stereophile went nuts over the Grimm because of that.

Maybe the best streamer has taiko's bass prowess and Grimm's algorithms?

 

[caesar]

by the way, although taiko has good bass for a streamer, a transport from china has much better bass and overall solidity than taiko, grimm, or any other streamer. YMMV, of course , so no whining please

 

[kennyb123]

But Grimm is supposed to have the creme de la creme of upsampling algorithms in the industry. The usually milquetoast John Atkinson of stereophile went nuts over the Grimm because of that.

The MU1 upscales only the synchronous outputs (spdif, AES), as I understand it. These outputs are limited to 4FS (192k) or DSD64. If one has a DAC that sounds better with these, then I wouldn’t be surprised if the Grimm’s algorithms provide a benefit providing that the DAC doesn’t include its own processing that applies a different filter. Upscaling to 4FS or DSD64 limits reconstruction accuracy relative to much higher rates. Higher rates also allow noise to be pushed further away from the audio band. If someone is looking for the “crème de la creme” upscaling algorithm that isn’t hamstrung with the 4FS limit, the there are other solutions that are likely to have considerable advantages.

Maybe the best streamer has taiko's bass prowess and Grimm's algorithms?

A number of Taiko Extreme owners use PGGB to upscale their music offline. I suspect that PGGB’s upscaling to at least 16FS or DSD512 far exceeds what Grimm is able to achieve with their algorithm.

 

[PYP]

The MU1 upscales only the synchronous outputs (spdif, AES), as I understand it. These outputs are limited to 4FS (192k) or DSD64. If one has a DAC that sounds better with these, then I wouldn’t be surprised if the Grimm’s algorithms provide a benefit providing that the DAC doesn’t include its own processing that applies a different filter. Upscaling to 4FS or DSD64 limits reconstruction accuracy relative to much higher rates. Higher rates also allow noise to be pushed further away from the audio band. If someone is looking for the “crème de la creme” upscaling algorithm that isn’t hamstrung with the 4FS limit, the there are other solutions that are likely to have considerable advantages.


A number of Taiko Extreme owners use PGGB to upscale their music offline. I suspect that PGGB’s upscaling to at least 16FS or DSD512 far exceeds what Grimm is able to achieve with their algorithm.

The MU1 worked very well with the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. The 4FS upsampling indicated what might be possible. The MU2 includes the MU1 streamer and Grimm's "Major DAC." This integrated, of course, eliminates the usual external connection and the 4FS limit. According to the manual:

Major DAC

• 128FS oversampling with proprietary “Pure Nyquist”
  filter.
• Bit perfect 11th order 1.5 bit Noise Shaper at 512FS.
• Max 12 dBu output for 0 dBFS digital input signal.
• Harmonic Distortion: < -120 dB, < 0.0001%.
• SNR: 107 dB.

Sounds like music.

From my own experience, the Grimm power supply greatly reduces the grunge carried along copper ethernet. When I got the MU1, I was able to eliminate an optical converter and two switches.

 

[kennyb123]

The MU1 worked very well with the Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC. The 4FS upsampling indicated what might be possible.

The Tambaqui upscales all incoming sample rates, as I understand it. Owners of that DAC who have evaluated PGGB, have pretty much all reported that PGGB provides no obvious benefit. I believe that’s because Mola Mola’s own algorithm fully reconstructs the incoming signal so it’s as if it hadn’t been upscaled before entering that DAC. As such I’d imagine that the MU1’s upscaling is also very likely being vanquished in the same way.

Nice specs on the Major DAC’s scaling capabilities. I think it kind of proves my point about upscaling needing to go to rates higher than 4FS to really move the needle. If the scaling found in the MU1 was “creme de la creme” they wouldn’t have opted to go so far beyond it with the Major DAC.

 

[PYP]

The Tambaqui upscales all incoming sample rates, as I understand it. Owners of that DAC who have evaluated PGGB, have pretty much all reported that PGGB provides no obvious benefit. I believe that’s because Mola Mola’s own algorithm fully reconstructs the incoming signal so it’s as if it hadn’t been upscaled before entering that DAC. As such I’d imagine that the MU1’s upscaling is also very likely being vanquished in the same way.

Nice specs on the Major DAC’s scaling capabilities. I think it kind of proves my point about upscaling needing to go to rates higher than 4FS to really move the needle. If the scaling found in the MU1 was “creme de la creme” they wouldn’t have opted to go so far beyond it with the Major DAC.

With the MU1, there are three FS options, 4 being the maximum. Going from 0 to 2 to 4 was an obvious improvement with the Tambaqui. Many other owners and reviewers had the same experience. That improvement made me curious about the MU2 since eliminating the SPDIF and AES limitations would allow higher FS. An in-home demo convinced my ears that Grimm had indeed refined playback further.

The MU1 + Tambaqui is very nice indeed and continues to satisfy fussy audiophiles. In fact, some prefer this combination to the MU2. As with everything else, synergy with the rest of one's setup actually governs the sound. And our preferences are different.

The MU1 and MU2 are, of course, for different markets. The MU1 is completely digital. But I agree that once they tried the MU1 with various DACS, it whetted their appetites for eliminating the DAC variable and designing their own. The Major DAC, as they call it, is a 1.5 bit DAC. In other words, they did not simply purchase a solution; they're built their own.

I enjoy the MU2 because it allows me to engage with music and hear deeper into the communication of the musicians. But I marvel at the cost (less than $18k) when I consider this level of playback and what is in the box -- streamer/server/DAC/nice volume control is desired -- vs. other solutions. I have observed some folks theoretically (that is, no listening experience) disregarding the unit because of its "low" price. Naturally, one cannot try everything but I find the assumption strange.