Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.

I never miss Ron, he’s always here, if not in body, then in terms of positive energy.
I’m fact, does anyone know how he got to be so enthusiastic, I’m getting more cynical as I get older.
So, that little lot...plus Ron.
Steve also getting an AS? That seemed to be Tang’s intimation.
This is a really select group.
What’s Best Forum 5 or 6: Audio Exotics Forum 0.
 
I suppose I could add a Panzerholtz bread board on top of the steel plate down the road if that is determined to be the optimal surface material.

This is actually not as straightforward as it seems. A) There cant be any pockets of air between the surfaces, or you may end up getting oscillations. Tablestable specs grease between the surfaces as a bare minimal measure to prevent this from happening. We use a 0.5mm (1/50”) rubber sheet between all surfaces. On top of that the aluminium both tablestable and we use is a special variant with a 0.05mm (1/500”) tolerance. Its very likely the carbon steel plate does not have this tolerance level. Panzerholz is more compliant but it will have to be bolted to the steel plate in multiple locations.
B) When you create a sandwich of materials you may endup “transporting” vibrational energy to an unwanted location. We dont have your carbon steel plate to verify but you may endup needing a 3 layer sandwich.

Sorry for the “bad news”, it’s complex material.
 
Hmm, life sure is complex at the bleeding edge.
From the little I know, Stacore blend their slate and secret sauce into a homogeneous platform, both the top layer of the Basic/Basic Plus, and also the additional top layer in the Advanced, to prevent any inconsistencies and present a “single” interface to the component being isolated on top.
 
Trying panzerholz on armboard like Artisan Fidelity might be a good idea. It is not going to be too expensive. And it is easy to remove if you don’t like it.

*** Why does it ring in my head “panty hose” every time I see the word Panzerholz.
 
Steve, it’s a pretty heady atmosphere in AS2000 land. A distinct lack of Oxygen as these guys all hold their collective breath. Dave has learnt to breathe in and out. But Mike, Ron, Christian and Tang will have to start at the beginning.
 
(...) At this point it may be useful to explain why we're going through the trouble of using panzerholz. It's not being used much, I suspect, because it's a nightmare for machining tools, it eats CNC tools for breakfast and likes to have a few more before lunch too, literally! It's also very expensive and is usually build to order, the combination of which leads to low default stocks. (...)

An audio internet myth, IMHO. Panzerholtz is surely more expensive than equivalent maritime plywood (x ~5, I think), but not over expensive considering the sizes we are addressing. And surely we need adequate tools to machine it, ordinary wood tools will last very little. I have ordered some Panzerholz in the past and the only problem was that minimum quantity of B25 type was a sheet of around 2.1 x 1 meter and they did not accept to send it cut in the halves!


The numbers of interest here are damping factor (actual damping), transmissibility (how well sound is transported through the material) and frequency (properties vary by frequency magnitude).

For Panzerholz, the damping factor at 200Hz is ~0.7, the transmissibility is ~1.5, at 1000Hz the damping factor is ~0.9, transmissibility is ~1.

Now lets compare this to some other materials, lower damping factor is lower damping, higher transmissibility is better transmissibility, listing 200Hz only:(...)

IMHO comparing figures taken in very different and ambiguous conditions, also considering that as you say properties vary by frequency, is nice for fun (as you wisely refer) and also to get an idea of materials but nothing else. The acoustic problems of small samples is a too complex subject to be explained in a forum post. We can anticipate people will be tempted to make misleading conclusions on this data.

Panzerholtz aluminum sandwiches surely have a sonic signature - some people will appreciate it, others will not. It is part of this hobby. :) I have listened to a Clearaudio Inovation sounding very good - but is was not my preferred choice.
 
And Francisco, according to Taiko’s data which I don’t dispute, slate is a poor choice for this function, yet is an undeniable triumph used in Stacore platforms.
 
And Francisco, according to Taiko’s data which I don’t dispute, slate is a poor choice for this function, yet is an undeniable triumph used in Stacore platforms.

I guess microstrip raises a good point in the post above yours as there are many factors in the equation. And it seems you’re indeed drawing the wrong conclusions.

Sandwiching different materials leads to different results.

Slate is not a poor choice, it may do little for damping, however it has considerable stiffness and mass, both of which lower the self resonant frequency. Subsequently it seems sandwiched to a different material which changes its properties. And the whole contraption is “floating on air”. I think it’s a very good choice for your situation.

Maybe I should restrict commentary to sounds good or bad :)
 
Sure Taiko, sorry if I sounded a bit spiky, not my intention.
Indeed it is the synergy of pneumatics, mass loading and constrained layer tech that is the USP for Stacore.
I was more intrigued that the materials that got closest to yr data for Panzerholz were rubber and vinyl.
 
Sure Taiko, sorry if I sounded a bit spiky, not my intention.
Indeed it is the synergy of pneumatics, mass loading and constrained layer tech that is the USP for Stacore.
I was more intrigued that the materials that got closest to yr data for Panzerholz were rubber and vinyl.

Actually, you may find this interesting, there’s something coming much closer which is bentonite clay. Dried bentonite is used as ...kitty litter... It can absorb something like 5 times its own weight in water. This would be a very good addition to piezoelectric grounding devices :) You just have to find a way to “keep it dry”. Like mixing it into a composite...
 
Taiko, you are kidding, right?!
You are aware of Entreq and “KittyGate”?
 
It’s been the common mantra as criticism against Entreq.
As in “oh, it’s just a box filled with kitty litter”.
So, they were right all along LOL.
 
Happiness..NDW23 unpacked and in the room. I think I will run my UHA RTR on it until the TT arrives.
 

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It’s been the common mantra as criticism against Entreq.
As in “oh, it’s just a box filled with kitty litter”.
So, they were right all along LOL.

I would guess Its a mix then. I could see another reason, bentonite is also used in “chemical earths”. Because it “stores” water it can increase the conductive surface area of the earth rod.

But we’re way off topic now.
 
Hi Taiko,

Thank you for the clarification, it's quite helpful. My focus here is limited to stabletable system with or without panzerholz, and only in connection with the American Sound turntable and nothing to do with it's general application for other equipment. In simple terms without getting into specifics for this application everything about the Herzan system is screaming back "Wrong" at me and your explanation only made the screams louder. I realize that I must be annoying my two friends here by repeating myself but I see it as my duty to dampen (pun intended!) the unchecked enthusiasm, just in case I'm right while hoping to be wrong.

david

Hi David,

I would associate "dead" with a lack of dynamics and liveliness, which is the opposite of what it brings to the "table". The reason we recommend buy before you try is that panzerholz "extends" the vibration reduction bandwidth of the tablestable. A big difference with most passive platforms is the tablestable actually acts and compensates vibrations of the component sitting on top. Some turntables use material resonances to "flavour" the sound. If you counteract on or damp these resonances you remove that "flavour".

For example, adding resonances in the 125-500Hz range can add fullness or warmth to the sound. Adding resonances in the 500Hz to 2K range can increase apparent definition and bite. Above 2K you can add resonances to increase apparent presence, clarity, sparkle etc. but we're now into entering into the range where there's not enough physical airborne energy which can couple to the structural section of the turntable to significantly excite resonant nodes. You need a certain amount of energy to be able to move mass, the lower the frequency at an energy level the more mass it is able to "move". For a passive platform increasing mass is a good way to increase isolation bandwidth down in frequency range.

Isolation is of course not equivalent to damping. You would call the tablestable and isolating device, but it isn't, it is dissipating vibrational energy by producing a counter force. By adding the panzerholz topplate we did not increase the isolation bandwidth but added damping to extend the isolation of the tablestable.

The active correction is very effective up till around ~40Hz where it can attenuate vibrations up to ~50dB, performance then rolls off to around ~-6dB from around 150-200Hz at which point it's acting as a strictly passive isolating/damping device up till around 1KHz.

The panzerholz is roughly doubling the total tablestable damping performance from ~150-1000Hz and extends the damping range to well over 2K.

At this point it may be useful to explain why we're going through the trouble of using panzerholz. It's not being used much, I suspect, because it's a nightmare for machining tools, it eats CNC tools for breakfast and likes to have a few more before lunch too, literally! It's also very expensive and is usually build to order, the combination of which leads to low default stocks.

The numbers of interest here are damping factor (actual damping), transmissibility (how well sound is transported through the material) and frequency (properties vary by frequency magnitude).

For Panzerholz, the damping factor at 200Hz is ~0.7, the transmissibility is ~1.5, at 1000Hz the damping factor is ~0.9, transmissibility is ~1.

Now lets compare this to some other materials, lower damping factor is lower damping, higher transmissibility is better transmissibility, listing 200Hz only:

Wood:
Walnut: DF 0.01, T 50
Oak: DF 0.01, T 27
Pine: DF 0.06, T 11
MDF: DF 0.02, T 42
Plyboard: DF 0.04, T 18
Cork: DF 0.1, T 6

Metal:
Aluminium: DF 0.004, T 177
Copper: DF 0.01, T 71
Steel: DF 0.08, T 88
Lead: DF 0.03, T 22

Various commonly used material:
Carbon Fibre: DF 0.06, T 12
Marble: DF 0.01, T 80
Slate: DF 0.02, T 42
Rubber: DF 0.3, T 2.5
Sorbothane: DF 0.2, T 4

Just for fun:
Vinyl record: DF 0.02, T 35
Vinyl record on bare metal platform: DF 0.05, T 13
Vinyl record on bare metal platform with platter mat: DF 0.12, T 6
Vinyl record as above with record clamp: DF 0.1, T 7

As you can see Panzerholz has some unique properties which make it very interesting for hifi applications. Unfortunately its not used much, the few companies I am aware of are Kaiser Acoustics, Lessloss, Clearaudio and us ofcourse!


Disclaimer: I am not a native English speaker so I had to translate some technical Dutch terms into English, hopefully I got everything right.
 
Hi Taiko,

Thank you for the clarification, it's quite helpful. My focus here is limited to stabletable system with or without panzerholz, and only in connection with the American Sound turntable and nothing to do with it's general application for other equipment. In simple terms without getting into specifics for this application everything about the Herzan system is screaming back "Wrong" at me and your explanation only made the screams louder. I realize that I must be annoying my two friends here by repeating myself but I see it as my duty to dampen (pun intended!) the unchecked enthusiasm, just in case I'm right while hoping to be wrong.

david

Exactly why we say don’t buy before you try!
 

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