looking good and ready to rumble!!! (or rather, eliminate any rumble).
the UHA will love it.
any word from David on the ETA of the AS?
We're shooting for mid December, waiting for sample finishes at this point.
david
Herzan/Table Stable "Active" Isolation table.
- Thread starter rockitman
- Start date
We're shooting for mid December, waiting for sample finishes at this point.
david
I’m not getting this Dave.
Are you opposed to active isolation for ALL tts, not just AS?
Or are you saying there’s something so unique about AS that precludes active isolation?
If the latter, why? However good it is, it’s still existing in the world of physics as it is, and active isolation is still the best solution for tt isolation of the alternatives in so many ways.
Are you opposed to active isolation for ALL tts, not just AS?
Or are you saying there’s something so unique about AS that precludes active isolation?
If the latter, why? However good it is, it’s still existing in the world of physics as it is, and active isolation is still the best solution for tt isolation of the alternatives in so many ways.
Dear Tang,
Thank you for the kind words. I'd take the job even if you didn't want any platform. It's just that type of adventure I cannot say 'no' to!
The main design object here id the rack not the platform and we have quite some radical ideas how to do it. Plus the pleasure of working with Dave.
In the unlikely event that you don't like the platform, you send it back to me and I give you back the money and
a rigid shelf for free. Even if the platform is a custom item, I have just proposed you in the second design round.
And I wholeheartedly recommend you trying your EMT on it!
Cheers,
Jarek
Thank you for the kind words. I'd take the job even if you didn't want any platform. It's just that type of adventure I cannot say 'no' to!
The main design object here id the rack not the platform and we have quite some radical ideas how to do it. Plus the pleasure of working with Dave.
In the unlikely event that you don't like the platform, you send it back to me and I give you back the money and
a rigid shelf for free. Even if the platform is a custom item, I have just proposed you in the second design round.
And I wholeheartedly recommend you trying your EMT on it!
Cheers,
Jarek
Thank you Peter. The top plate for the AS is just a 25 mm thick stainless steel that weigh more than 100kgs. My priority is on the top shelf without any antivibe mechanism. Even before David’s recommendation I myself believe this super heavy solid bloc of steel tt just need a very stable and strong high mass rack for support nothing more. When I told David this he was happy I take this route. He recommended stainless steel because Bangkok is humid and carbon steel corrode. I don’t consider pneumatic solutions active.
The second tier I intend to put my phono there. This shelf I have Jarek incorporate the Stacore Advance to it. To be honest, I am not so much into antivibe rack, devices, footers, because I don’t hear much from my CMS and I heard more what I didn’t want to hear from Stllpoint Ultra6. These things just don’t sing to me. Maybe my ears are just not golden enough. I never told Jarek this. If I have told him maybe he didn’t want to take the job
My first contact with Jarek was for a custom platform for the EMT. It didn’t happen but I found Jarek one of the specialist in this field, very humble, doesn’t rave about his products by himself, no ego and his design aesthetic is my cup of tea. Designer’s characters do influence my buying decision since I don’t always get to do a test run.
Kind regards,
Tang
Here it is in action with my RTR machine. iPhone 8 video..
https://youtu.be/DKSQ2h_UvKY
The flickering red light up right is detecting the incoming spinning motion/vibration of the RTR machine. The important thing is the "enable" button (yellow, bottom right) remains on and constant...NOT Flashing. If it's flashing it's not isolating or stabilized and the load balance may need to be re-adjusted/fine-tuned, ect. The springs you see are what you adjust to balance the load of whatever goes on top. The TS series does this for you (automatically). That feature adds a lot to the expense of the TS series besides it's compact foot print. I don't think my RTR player has ever sounded so good. I may need to get a TS150 for the RTR.
https://youtu.be/DKSQ2h_UvKY
The flickering red light up right is detecting the incoming spinning motion/vibration of the RTR machine. The important thing is the "enable" button (yellow, bottom right) remains on and constant...NOT Flashing. If it's flashing it's not isolating or stabilized and the load balance may need to be re-adjusted/fine-tuned, ect. The springs you see are what you adjust to balance the load of whatever goes on top. The TS series does this for you (automatically). That feature adds a lot to the expense of the TS series besides it's compact foot print. I don't think my RTR player has ever sounded so good. I may need to get a TS150 for the RTR.
Congratulations, Christian. Have you thought about putting your TechDas on this new stand and the RTR unit on the Herzan tabletop platform? Also, do you plan to keep the TechDas after the AS2000 arrives or is it too early to make that decision?
I’m not getting this Dave.
Are you opposed to active isolation for ALL tts, not just AS?
Or are you saying there’s something so unique about AS that precludes active isolation?
If the latter, why?
It's page 25 not sure if somewhere earlier on this thread or another one I mentioned negative experience with different active platforms and some particular high mass turntables, it was never meant to be a blanket statement about all tts. The more recent posts are specifically in connection with AS & stabletable which admittedly I haven't tried together, nevertheless there are fundamentally opposing elements here that's giving me pause.
Apparently Herzan the topic of this thread isn't an isolation device but an active damping system and Taiko Tana is the same active damping system with additional layer of passive damping, are you you declaring one of these two as the best in the world or something else?
Forget about objective or subjective supporting data which I know doesn't exist Mark but I have to ask according to whom, what type of active isolation, for what purpose and compared to what?
david
The TechDas does not work well with these active devices (air compliance). Despite the limited success I had with the AF1, the unit was at it's edge of satisfactory performance. I currently have the Clearaudio Master Innovation on the TS-140, a non suspended design. The TS140 is much happier with a rigid style turntable on it. After hearing my tape deck on this device/stand, the TS-140 will have a new home under my UHA deck and power supply.
While waiting you should try some other electronics on the table too, specially your phono stages.
david
David, apologies if I’m going in circles, or contradicting myself.
If you speak to Mike when he got into Herzan some years back, his strong assertion was that non suspended tts would by definition benefit from active isolation, and it was hard to argue against him.
The end result of that in my personal case was spending big on a Stacore platform (was going to be an active platform, but not so in the end).
And you’re one of the lone voices arguing against Herzan in the case of your unsuspended AS2000, going so far as to say the very principle of Herzan is absolutely likely negative in proposed use under the AS.
So, consider me a little perplexed.
If you speak to Mike when he got into Herzan some years back, his strong assertion was that non suspended tts would by definition benefit from active isolation, and it was hard to argue against him.
The end result of that in my personal case was spending big on a Stacore platform (was going to be an active platform, but not so in the end).
And you’re one of the lone voices arguing against Herzan in the case of your unsuspended AS2000, going so far as to say the very principle of Herzan is absolutely likely negative in proposed use under the AS.
So, consider me a little perplexed.
Nothing to apologize for Mark, for me this hobby is about experience and trial and error not about who's right or wrong, initial positions can and do change in time. Mike's a singular data point with one particular dissimilar turntable and in case of Herzan we're not talking about isolation but active damping and apparently not isolation, there's a difference. The 2nd data point is Chris with a totally different turntable design who's position evolved over time with experience to where he stopped using the stabletable with his AF-1. I'm a 3rd data point with another set of experiences, we're all lone voices for now
.david
I'm actually slightly relieved to learn that you took the AF1 off the Herzan. That combination just never made any theoretical sense to me, with the AF1 having its own air suspension.
The jelly wiggle nature of air feet are not a good match for counter vibration attenuation via active isolation. Passive air platforms...no problem I would imagine.
Also a problem with passive you'll be doubling up on the damping, one of the issues with the herzan & AF1 too.
david
If I remember correctly Tim Rather of Herzan wrote to me that the manual-leveling AVI is more accommodating of a somewhat unbalanced load then is the auto-leveling TS series.
It’s possible. When I had the tape deck on top of the PS on stillpoints SS...the load wiggled and that is
why in my video the top right red light flickered. It shouldn’t do that. Load is more stable with bread board on PS on TS 140 and is isolating well. The NDW is rock solid with a spinning TT. No red lights and rock solid and stable...table stable like
It’s possible. When I had the tape deck on top of the PS on stillpoints SS...the load wiggled and that is
why in my video the top right red light flickered. It shouldn’t do that. Load is more stable with bread board on PS on TS 140 and is isolating well. The NDW is rock solid with a spinning TT. No red lights and rock solid and stable...table stable like
Hi Christian,
There's always a small possibility of some oscillations between the AVI's and the shelf. We can send you some 0.5mm rubber sheets cut to size which we use to prevent this from occurring. Most of the time you wouldn't even know if this is occurring, yet removing them leads to better performance. The blinking red light could be an indicator of this though. If you'd like to try, PM me your address and exact AVI model number and we'll ship them to you, free of charge.
Hi David,
Well its achieving a certain level of isolation through damping, amongst others
Quoting from Wikipedia:
Vibration isolation is the process of isolating an object, such as a piece of equipment, from the source of vibrations.
Vibration is undesirable in many domains, primarily engineered systems and habitable spaces, and methods have been developed to prevent the transfer of vibration to such systems. Vibrations propagate via mechanical waves and certain mechanical linkages conduct vibrations more efficiently than others. Passive vibration isolation makes use of materials and mechanical linkages that absorb and damp these mechanical waves. Active vibration isolation involves sensors and actuators that produce destructive interference that cancels-out incoming vibration.
Passive isolation
"Passive vibration isolation" refers to vibration isolation or mitigation of vibrations by passive techniques such as rubber pads or mechanical springs, as opposed to "active vibration isolation" or "electronic force cancellation" employing electric power, sensors, actuators, and control systems.
Passive vibration isolation is a vast subject, since there are many types of passive vibration isolators used for many different applications. A few of these applications are for industrial equipment such as pumps, motors, HVAC systems, or washing machines; isolation of civil engineering structures from earthquakes (base isolation),sensitive laboratory equipment, valuable statuary, and high-end audio.
Active isolation
Active vibration isolation systems contain, along with the spring, a feedback circuit which consists of a sensor (for example a piezoelectric accelerometer or a geophone), a controller, and an actuator. The acceleration (vibration) signal is processed by a control circuit and amplifier. Then it feeds the electromagnetic actuator, which amplifies the signal. As a result of such a feedback system, a considerably stronger suppression of vibrations is achieved compared to ordinary damping. Active isolation today is used for applications where structures smaller than a micrometer have to be produced or measured. A couple of companies produce active isolation products as OEM for research, metrology, lithography and medical systems. Another important application is the semiconductor industry. In the microchip production, the smallest structures today are below 20*nm, so the machines which produce and check them have to oscillate much less.
Any resonant suspension would be a potential problem due to a possibility of beat oscillations if the natural frequencies are too close. However with pneumatics one can control the natural frequencies by the air pressure so it may be possible to find such a combination of pressures in the AF1 suspension and the underlying pneumatic platform that the two suspensions cooperate rather than excite each other. Experimentation is needed.
Cheers,
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