High efficiency horn speaker amp question

[Atmasphere]

Wherever do you get that from? Yes, they can be driven by a few watts, but also sound just as good driven by carefully chosen high powered SS amps.

I have to agree. I've been driving my horns with one of our S-30 amps but recently I've been playing a class D amp and swapping between the two. Other than how bass is presented its really hard to tell the difference between the two. But having also done some measurements, both amps have the distortion qualities I outlined above, although the class D is a good order of magnitude lower distortion.

The terrible sounding amps with feedback to which @morricab refers are those that run insufficient amounts of feedback- and so have that brightness and harshness to which I was also referring earlier. On horns that can be quite awful!

 

[morricab]

Wherever do you get that from? Yes, they can be driven by a few watts, but also sound just as good driven by carefully chosen high powered SS amps.

Horn speakers can sound as good powered by a SS amp as by an SET. If the SS amp is carefully chosen of course. My horn speakers were subjected to several SS amps before they sounded better than they did with SETs, but I've now cracked it and moved away from valve amps altogether and am very content. I use a 200 watt Class D with my 107 dB horns

Whether you are content are not is a subjective thing. I am happy for you. I hear it very differently and would not ever put any SS amp or Class D amp on my horns.

 

[morricab]

I have to agree. I've been driving my horns with one of our S-30 amps but recently I've been playing a class D amp and swapping between the two. Other than how bass is presented its really hard to tell the difference between the two. But having also done some measurements, both amps have the distortion qualities I outlined above, although the class D is a good order of magnitude lower distortion.

The terrible sounding amps with feedback to which @morricab refers are those that run insufficient amounts of feedback- and so have that brightness and harshness to which I was also referring earlier. On horns that can be quite awful!

WHich Class D Ralph? I haven't heard one yet that I think correctly reproduces the treble range and mids have always sounded very dry to me.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I guess it depends on what you mean by low watts...I use 25-40 watt SETs and this runs my horns just fine.

That should be fine. I am taliking very low amps like 5 watts or less cart do the job no matter how efficient the speakers are in my opinion.may be ok for soft levels but if you turn the sound loud it will run out of juice.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

Wherever do you get that from? Yes, they can be driven by a few watts, but also sound just as good driven by carefully chosen high powered SS amps.

Horn speakers can sound as good powered by a SS amp as by an SET. If the SS amp is carefully chosen of course. My horn speakers were subjected to several SS amps before they sounded better than they did with SETs, but I've now cracked it and moved away from valve amps altogether and am very content. I use a 200 watt Class D with my 107 dB horns

agree with you mate.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I used to run my first horns (102 dB) with 6 watts of PX-25 SET. Ample volume available and exceptionaly nice sound on small scale music but rather out of its depth with big orchestral stuff. Switched to big 845-based monos but now using 200 watt Class D with my 3rd pair of horns (107dB). You can't have too much of a good thing! Very happy.

Nice one and spot on.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I think it's useful to write out the math even though we all know it. You be the judge...

108db - 1w
111 - 2
114 - 4
117 - 8
120 - 16
123 - 32
126 - 64
129 - 128
132 - 256

Head room is very important. Even if you are using only 1 watt of power it will sound better if you have say 200 watts in reserve. That one watt will than sound better.cheers

 

[morricab]

That should be fine. I am taliking very low amps like 5 watts or less cart do the job no matter how efficient the speakers are in my opinion.may be ok for soft levels but if you turn the sound loud it will run out of juice.

A friend had McIntosh MC501 monos and he liked to listen at levels I would consider loud (casual conversation was becoming difficult at those levels). He was convinced that he needed high power SS amps as a result for Thiel CS3.7 speakers (about 91db but with lowish impedance so real sensitivity is lower per watt). However, the evidence to the contrary was staring him in the face (literally in the form of big blue power meters).

We ran a series of tests with peak hold function on a wide range of music at his preferred listening level (too loud for me for more than a couple of hours) and found we never exceeded 50 watts and mostly were less than 10 watts. At my preferred levels you can probably cut that at least in half.

A few years later, we found that we could easily drive this same speaker, which conventional wisdom said no way, with amps as low as 20 watts comfortably. A VAC 30/30 was a beast on this speaker as was an Aries Cerat Diana (25 watt SET) and a pair of Cayin 845 monos was still easily adequate.

Now pump the sensitivity up by 10db or more over that speaker and give an easy load and I don’t see where you run out of gas unless you are literally playing at rock concert levels or sit 10 meters away in a aircraft hanger.

 

[morricab]

Head room is very important. Even if you are using only 1 watt of power it will sound better if you have say 200 watts in reserve. That one watt will than sound better.cheers

No because you have typically corrupted that first watt to get the other 199. The power itself has nothing to do with sound quality.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

No because you have typically corrupted that first watt to get the other 199. The power itself has nothing to do with sound quality.

You could be right i am no expert. Just on the audio I have owned I found the more power the better.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

No because you have typically corrupted that first watt to get the other 199. The power itself has nothing to do with sound quality.

I have to agree with you, Brad. Why oh why someone would want to drive efficient horns (I am not talking about the sub 100 things) with high power solid state or heaven forbid class D is beyond me. The only reason I can see for using Class D would be ultra low signal to noise ratio, cost of running, low budget OR if you go multi-way active and have say 10 channels therefore again is much cheaper.
I was perfectly content listening to the 1/2 watt 252 amp driving a big WE system in Munich with orchestral tbh. That in a gigantic auditorium room with >100 seats.
The quality of the first watt is the critical piece here. Anyway - each to their own.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

I won´t even bother commenting...Totally agree with Bill

 

[Addicted to hifi]

My evs are 108 dB efficient yet on the owners manual they recommended a minimum of 400 watts rms.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

All things equal the more power available the better the sonic quality.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I must admit I do listen at around 120db for a minute or two sometimes. This is safe for your hearing because it’s only for a minute or two.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

2 8watt 300B set can behave and sound totally different due to among other things the psu
also an 8watt 300B can have a better hold on the midbass than a PP845, which was exactly what happened when I bought NAGRA VPA on my dual FLH midbasshorns
I was bloody sure the PP845 would have a better grip than my 300B, but they did worse
when I looked at the peanutsize psu I can see why

 

[morricab]

All things equal the more power available the better the sonic quality.

And do you really think all things are equal??

 

[morricab]

2 8watt 300B set can behave and sound totally different due to among other things the psu
also an 8watt 300B can have a better hold on the midbass than a PP845, which was exactly what happened when I bought NAGRA VPA on my dual FLH midbasshorns
I was bloody sure the PP845 would have a better grip than my 300B, but they did worse
when I looked at the peanutsize psu I can see why

Yes, the Nagras are quite small for what they are. I also noticed that the measurements in Stereophile show a large rise in distortion in the bass that indicates an undersized output transformer.

 

[Hear Here]

Whether you are content are not is a subjective thing. I am happy for you. I hear it very differently and would not ever put any SS amp or Class D amp on my horns.

It's always rather sad when someone has shut his mind so thoroughly against (for examplw) solid state or (particularly) Class D that he's not even prepared to test others' results.

My Avantgarde Duo XDs sound good with my SET monos, but certainly now sound even better with Purifi-based Class D amplification. Furthermore, because the amp is so efficient and costly componants are not wearing out (as they are with valve amps), I now listen to far more hours of music than when I used valves. And my electricity bill is unaffected - and the Environment is happy too!

Give it an unbiased try. Get a NAD M33 on loan and try it for 7-14 days before reverting back to your valves - you may be surprised at how much you enjoy (even possibly prefer) the Purifi sound.

PS - Just noticed that you have a vested interest in plugging valves. You import and distribute valve amps, but that shouldn't stop you from trying a good SS amp in the security of your own home. You needn't tell your customers! Or you could look for alternative / additional brands to distribute - ones that don't contribute quite so much to customers' power bills and global warming.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

very interesting...first time I´ve gotten my observation confirmed by anyone in any form.....