But good for business in appealing to a market that has largely rejected science and engineering in favor of a mysterious, fuzzy relativism.
Tim
How much is too much?
- Thread starter DaveyF
- Start date
But good for business in appealing to a market that has largely rejected science and engineering in favor of a mysterious, fuzzy relativism.
Tim
Tim,
Beautiful! I hope you are taking exception for the egos of all members of WBF ...
BTW, any forum about luxury cars, watches or similar goods is full of similar comments.
I would be more careful - classifying a statement as false in two words just because it uses the words "always" or "all" when it it true most of the times and a few times false can lead to wrong interpretations.
Of that I am now certain and it is liberating ...
In my opinion high End Audio started as an enthusiastic search for the best in music reproduction .. it is now far devolving into a luxury-just-for-luxury- sake field ... helped no doubt by the tendency of too many audiophiles to reject science and data.
Thus my definite reply to the question:
No price is too high. THere is no "too much"
And I am still waiting for the $100 K speaker cable
Both implications are false exactly because of the use of the words "always" and "all"
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Two years ago while visiting my buddy Marty in Dallas, we were invited to hear a system of another audiophile who also had X-2 Alexandrias. The system was a collection of the TOL everything with the entire system cabled with Nordost Odin some runs of which were well over 25 feet. By my guestimate there was well over $100K in cables
The flowers are smelling mighty fine for me right now. I think I shall be meandering for a while
Pelican cases are used for many instruments and many of us that are photographers (including myself) have and use these for our camera equipment. They are quite rugged, take quite a beating, and most definitely protect their contents.
Rich
Well, I did purchase three items today. I'm burning in the new xo's and they've got a lot of teflon caps in them. I purchased 3 electric fans so I can keep the amps and preamps cool without having to have the AC on and using up a whole Brontosaurus worth of fossil fuel. Hahahaha! Tropical country remember? 120 hours down and sounding awesome!
Well, I did purchase three items today. I'm burning in the new xo's and they've got a lot of teflon caps in them. I purchased 3 electric fans so I can keep the amps and preamps cool without having to have the AC on and using up a whole Brontosaurus worth of fossil fuel. Hahahaha! Tropical country remember? 120 hours down and sounding awesome!
Jack,
That is a Apatosaurus by its correct name for those of us in the know
:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatosaurus
Rich
I think we should require that reviewrs should ask these questions:
1. Is there an invention that required substantial R&D? If it's your first product using existing technology, the customer should not have to pay a premium for that.
2. Are you using premium products that contribute to the sound quality? Nothing wrong with a gold plated faceplate, if that's what you're'looking for.
3. Is the product labor intensive with a limited sales potential? If you can only sale ten that's mean you you have to pay your bills and make your profut form a small number of itmes. that drives the price up.
4. What are others charging for the same product? There's always someone who could do it for less. Heck you can do it for less.
1. Is there an invention that required substantial R&D? If it's your first product using existing technology, the customer should not have to pay a premium for that.
2. Are you using premium products that contribute to the sound quality? Nothing wrong with a gold plated faceplate, if that's what you're'looking for.
3. Is the product labor intensive with a limited sales potential? If you can only sale ten that's mean you you have to pay your bills and make your profut form a small number of itmes. that drives the price up.
4. What are others charging for the same product? There's always someone who could do it for less. Heck you can do it for less.
Yes, there are ego-buys out there that are just not worth the money...because you actually CAN buy something for less that is superior. that is stupid, and frankly i am not too bothered...caveat emptor.
Yes, there are also products that have been developed to absolutely set new record-levels of realism, detail, etc...products that once upon a time would NEVER have been considered economically viable due to cost. The market has spoken and welcomed those products...the CJ ART, the Gryphon Mephisto...these were all products built cost-no-object for INTERNAL evaluation by the manufacturers as their own reference systems...until their fans demanded they deliver them to the commercial market at 5 and 6-digit prices. I have no problems with this either.
The real problem is that in general, there has been a "price creep" relative to quality...because if you are a manufacturer who actually does build a good product...why would you build to a 50% margin when you can do a 150% margin because you can compete at this new higher, price point...and the mkt will soak up the supply?
the only thing i can see countering this trend is that i am now starting to see that most of the high-end audio dealers i know are doing more business trading s/hand high-end units than anything else (other than the occassional ultra high end )...because the mkt has spoken and said they'd rather have a 7-yr old pair of Krell FPB750mcx monos than a brand new XYZ (with that built-in super margin which isn't worth it), or even a brand new product from a start-up where the margin actually is 30% because they used top-tier materials. This trend may take time to eat into the audio mainstream...but i suspect it will...either by keeping a relative lid on price creep over the next 24-36 months...or by forcing manufacturers to build superior products to those higher aspirational price points.
"The real problem is that in general, there has been a "price creep" relative to quality...because if you are a manufacturer who actually does build a good product...why would you build to a 50% margin when you can do a 150% margin because you can compete at this new higher, price point...and the mkt will soak up the supply?"
Lloyd, I would think that most manufacturer's would believe that if the product is absorbed in a fairly short amount of time, that the market has spoken and the consumer has accepted the pricing of the product. OTOH, I have to wander what is the "Success level", if you will, of some of the more esoteric and pricey products that we are beginning to see more of in the high-end?
Is it possible that if just one of the product is sold that it can be considered a success based on the realized sales price
BTW,I was told recently by a high-end manufacturer that as far as he was concerned, his expected market at his asking price was the far east and that in fact IF he sold one of the product to the west, then that was simply a bonus
Hi DaveyF,
That does not surprise me in the high-end arena in which we are discussing (WBForum)...Asia is a market that prizes the rare, unique, high-end in watches, jewlery, cars, you name it...more so, per capital, than in the West. Hong Kong used to be known for having more jewelry store per square foot than any city in the world...dont know about now. might still do! And their population growth is driving economics in a way that is not happening in the West where populations are not growing (other than in the States thru immigration).
So, in the current crisis, the West is being outbid for high-end products by the EAst, in overly simplistic terms. But the East is not stupid...if these esoteric products do not work out...break...ain't that good, the Asians will not buy or stop buying, like any knowledgeable consumer. If you look at their forums, it is incredible how many guys own old equipment that many of us on this forum have remarked still stand the test of time...good ears is good ears.
The economy has resulted in start ups for many reasons...this reinvention is a good thing, and i wish every start up well. But to survive long term (not selling one turntable)...they will eventualy realize the spending frenzy is stablizing, and they need to deliver consistent, reliable value for money...at whatever price point. Service, support, warranties, quality, reliability...all the time tested traits of a good business that runs the long term.
We are just in a funk in the market cycle when spending spurts like this push up pricing, and those of us who are not the ones spending find it difficult to keep up...but all things trend back to market norms...nothing stays up forever (or down). And the good quality new manufacturers of today will survive thru long-term approach to delivering great value.
That does not surprise me in the high-end arena in which we are discussing (WBForum)...Asia is a market that prizes the rare, unique, high-end in watches, jewlery, cars, you name it...more so, per capital, than in the West. Hong Kong used to be known for having more jewelry store per square foot than any city in the world...dont know about now. might still do! And their population growth is driving economics in a way that is not happening in the West where populations are not growing (other than in the States thru immigration).
So, in the current crisis, the West is being outbid for high-end products by the EAst, in overly simplistic terms. But the East is not stupid...if these esoteric products do not work out...break...ain't that good, the Asians will not buy or stop buying, like any knowledgeable consumer. If you look at their forums, it is incredible how many guys own old equipment that many of us on this forum have remarked still stand the test of time...good ears is good ears.
The economy has resulted in start ups for many reasons...this reinvention is a good thing, and i wish every start up well. But to survive long term (not selling one turntable)...they will eventualy realize the spending frenzy is stablizing, and they need to deliver consistent, reliable value for money...at whatever price point. Service, support, warranties, quality, reliability...all the time tested traits of a good business that runs the long term.
We are just in a funk in the market cycle when spending spurts like this push up pricing, and those of us who are not the ones spending find it difficult to keep up...but all things trend back to market norms...nothing stays up forever (or down). And the good quality new manufacturers of today will survive thru long-term approach to delivering great value.
I'm not so sure that we are seeing a 'spending spurt' here in the US or in Europe in audio gear.
IMHO, we are seeing exactly the opposite, wherein the market and spending on audio gear is declining
. However, like you say nothing goes down or up forever, so upon the recovery, the question is where will the pricing strategy head...most likely steeply upward. Only question then is are there enough 'well heeled' a'philes to support those gains given that currently the number of a'philes would appear to be lessening and as HW pointed out the current strategy may be pushing many away.Similar threads
