How to Revive High-End Audio

[Andre Marc]

but all that low end stuff is made in China. no thanks for many folks. and many manufacturers (Vac for instance) don't make anything under 10k now. anything! the big problem is in the middle at the 10k-20k system level. you either go really cheap or 50k. and there just aren't enough 50k buyers out there. i beleive the average Stereophile system is in that middle (forget JA's number off hand)

as a result, i am seeing 10-12k stereo amps pop up everywhere that 10 years ago were half that. i never see 10k speakers reviews- its either a 3k SF or a 30k Magico. i could go on and on.

there is a great article on Positive Feedback right now on the high end death spiral related to pricing- very interesting read.

Really? China? I guess you are not familiar with the made in the USA product lines Rogue Audio, Belles, Channel Islands Audio, Bel Canto, DecWare,
Kimber, Audio Electronics (Cary) etc etc etc.

Or made in Europe from Opera, Unison Research, Micromega, blah blah blah

Then I can name dozens of British made...Spendor, Harbeth, Croft

False argument.

PS..can you link article?

 

[Andre Marc]

Whew! Where to start with all those gross generalisations...? Hmm.

Have you looked at the default rates of credit cards or mortgages in the last five years - the way most consumers have historically funded purchase of a 60" flat screen or trip to Vegas?

Don't bother looking it up, I tell you. It's lower than it has been for years. Do you know why? Because those default rates don't take into account the number of debts that were written off, rather than paid off, meaning that although defaults have decreased, actual indebtedness has increased. And, because banks and credit companies had to tighten their lending criteria after so many defaults and write-offs, there is less easy money around than there was pre-2007/2008.

Therefore, that $5-6K you think is available for middle to upper-middle income earners simply isn't there to borrow as easily anymore. Not if you also need health and dental for three kids.

Also, if you were a hobbyist who bought a really well-balanced system for $20K 30 years ago before the invention of the compact disc, do you really think that same consumer is now in the market to upgrade to a MacBook Pro, a 2TB hard drive a USB DAC and er...? Wait, you can't play vinyl on a MacBook Pro?

Anyway, I'm done.

At least you have your priorities right. Sure is a big lesson to everyone else.

Grasping at straws. Way off base. Credit card rates? Vinyl, digital? HUH?????

It is a matter of priorities. As I said. A middle class hobbyist who loves music cannot afford
to invest 3K into a playback system? Lack of interest, and a low priority if that is a case.

 

[Andre Marc]

first, the proliferation of headphones means that music is en vogue- it just doesn't translate to *** high end. people wearing Beats aren't buying 30k Magicos, period.

the 5-6k system is now made in China. no thanks for many folks. and many manufacturers (Vac for instance) don't make anything under 10k now. anything! the big problem is in the middle at the 10k-20k system level. you either go really cheap or 50k. and there just aren't enough 50k buyers out there. i beleive the average Stereophile system is in that middle (forget JA's number off hand)

there is a great article on Positive Feedback right now about the high end death spiral related to pricing- very interesting read.

Would you like me to piece together an example of a NON Made In China system for 3 grand?

 

[853guy]

Grasping at straws. Way off base. Credit card rates? Vinyl, digital? HUH?????

It is a matter of priorities. As I said. A middle class hobbyist who loves music cannot afford
to invest 3K into a playback system? Lack of interest, and a low priority if that is a case.

Ha... okay dude.

Sorry some facts about how the middle class purchase consumer goods got in the way there and how much more difficult that is now.

You continue on with your arrogant assumptions about how wrong everyone else's priorities are, and how right yours are.

I'm out.

 

[jn229]

There are more high quality affordable products available now than at any other time in the history of the hobby. It is NOT income related. It is interest.

This thread is titled "How to Revive High-End Audio". Maybe we should define 'High-End' for the purpose of this thread. For example: the VPI Scout is a wonderful high quality affordable table that the majority of audiophiles would be proud to own and rightfully so. I would not call the VPI Scout a High-End product. Can an audiophile assemble a wonderful rewarding system with products like the Scout, absolutely. The term 'High-End' to me means just a notch below or on the cutting edge of technology and sound quality. If you define 'High-End' in these terms, then audiophiles who own products like the Scout and want to upgrade to 'High-End" already have the interest in audio. What they lack is the deposable cash.

 

[Andre Marc]

Ha... okay dude.

Sorry some facts about how the middle class purchase consumer goods got in the way there and how much more difficult that is now.

You continue on with your arrogant assumptions about how wrong everyone else's priorities are, and how right yours are.

I'm out.

Nonsense. You are putting words in my mouth. Nobody's priorities are RIGHT or WRONG. They are different.

Let me try again. If someone chooses NOT to invest in a modest playback system, it is not a priority.

If they DO invest, it IS a priority.

 

[rbbert]

IMHO, the top end of pricing for audio gear is only about those who feel the need to have the latest and/or greatest. There's a significant amount of stuff available and/or coming at much more reasonable prices. Just look at Magico and Rockport's latest offerings; less expensive versions of what are already mid-priced (in their lines) best sellers. Speakers around $10k? NOLA, Vandersteen, Magenpan, etc offer some pretty nice ones.

I'm with Andre here; it's more about interest and priorities than actual pricing. You can get a pretty outstanding system for the price of one year at a private college/university (I undertand that few people actually have to pay the full amount for that college year; it was just for illustration. Most people don't have to buy audio gear at MSRP either).

 

[Andre Marc]

This thread is titled "How to Revive High-End Audio". Maybe we should define 'High-End' for the purpose of this thread. For example: the VPI Scout is a wonderful high quality affordable table that the majority of audiophiles would be proud to own and rightfully so. I would not call the VPI Scout a High-End product. Can an audiophile assemble a wonderful rewarding system with products like the Scout, absolutely. The term 'High-End' to me means just a notch below or on the cutting edge of technology and sound quality. If you define 'High-End' in these terms, then audiophiles who own products like the Scout and want to upgrade to 'High-End" already have the interest in audio. What they lack is the deposable cash.

Defining "high end" may indeed be another topic but I don't think it is that nuanced...but then we may touch upon the nasty subject of snobbery...

 

[Alrainbow]

3k i just spent 30k on a dac and its not there top of the line. Iride the subways of nyc almost daily. and as such i see the earbuds all is using. personnel audio is jumping . almost everyone has a pair. now lets move up to me i wear CIEM,s that cost about 1500.00 and a DAP that was about 1200.00 how many of me are out there. well on the train zero. i have never sean one yet. but go to a headphone forum and there isa thousands of us. i happen to be someone who enjoys both sides.
and most of you would say i dont love music if you asked me questions about the music i listen to. im 57 i have two homes with hi end systems and one in my office. do i fit in yet? The point is times change and 2 channel ultra hi end did not. if i go into lyric in nyc they have 2 or 3 headphones, thats insulting to me . i own ten pairs, but im still not in this club. so who is in this club anyway ? how about we do a demographic study on this website. i think its safe to assume most people here own a fairly hi end setup some . i can tell something else this hobby is very complicated , never ending in improvements, expensive, bad return in investment, and most of the people argue over who,s tweeter is better this week. this is a really tough crowd for me to be around and I'm one of you. now given almost all here are very supportive when you need help .

But never ask whats better , that will never be answered. i have other hobbies but i think its hard to find the time to do them.
i love this though and do not want to see this go away , but it is so hard to just enjoy it and not keep reading whats new.

al

 

[KeithR]

Would you like me to piece together an example of a NON Made In China system for 3 grand?

I don't care about the 3k system as that doesn't drive the high end imo. if the audio industry has shrunk by 50% over the past decade with an even more abundant lot of budget gear these days, then clearly it doesn't matter.

 

[KeithR]

IMHO, the top end of pricing for audio gear is only about those who feel the need to have the latest and/or greatest. There's a significant amount of stuff available and/or coming at much more reasonable prices. Just look at Magico and Rockport's latest offerings; less expensive versions of what are already mid-priced (in their lines) best sellers. Speakers around $10k? NOLA, Vandersteen, Magenpan, etc offer some pretty nice ones.

I'm with Andre here; it's more about interest and priorities than actual pricing. You can get a pretty outstanding system for the price of one year at a private college/university (I undertand that few people actually have to pay the full amount for that college year; it was just for illustration. Most people don't have to buy audio gear at MSRP either).

Nevermind

 

[Al M.]

The reason the industry is shrinking is IMO..to be blunt..high end audio has NOTHING TO DO with the love of music.

Over the past two years I have become extremely disillusioned when meeting audiophiles who do not go out
to experience live music of any genre, who have tiny music collections filled with "reference" recordings,
and have very little musical knowledge.

I am afraid you're right. Recently we had a thread where people were asked how accurately their system could reproduce a live performance, and quite a few answered 95 or even 100 % (the latter meaning, "I can accurately reproduce any musical performance"):

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12155-How-close-are-you-to-the-finish-line

This was rather shocking, since anyone actually attending live concerts of un-amplified music knows that the differences with ANY system are huge. This enforced the opinion of some of us that many audiophiles really have no clue about live music, and only come to their conclusions about how good their systems are by comparing them with other systems rather than with the real thing.

who have tiny music collections filled with "reference" recordings,

...and if someone mentions "Jazz at the Pawnshop" again, I will get revulsions.

CD is still the standard for 95% of those with digital source components. That is a fact.

Indeed. CD is where all the music is. Anyone pretending that hi-rez, with its measly musical choices, can substitute for that, appears to not listen to a great variety of music. Which again, would be typical audiophile behavior, as you stated. I would think a music lover tries to get the best out of CD because that's where all the music is, only an audiophile who listens to two dozen digital hi-rez recordings over and over again can afford to trash CD. But obviously, some people here will vehemently disagree with me, and I would not expect otherwise. In fact, I am already ducking for cover.

 

[rbbert]

Trash CD, not me. Wish for something better, definitely. Complain about the sound quality of modern mastering practices, even more so.

 

[Alrainbow]

What is being discussed here has little to do with this thread . I am fine with off topic though , it's just a better thread should be started. I do understand how you people feel as this is a very pompis hobby. As much money as I spend on this I feel I'm not part of the click cause I did not spend enough . And I read how people who have super systems get picked on for there choices. I laugh at this, but in the end it's just human nature to want what you have to be better. For me I just want something good and feel so perplexed to not enjoy it cause I'm not sure how it should sound or be processed by my equipment. But all of this has little to do with this hobby if it is slowing down.
If I had a million dollars to spend on a super system , how would I even begin to select what devices to buy .am I just supposed to believe what a so called audio designer says or am I supposed to listen and make my own choices and get goofed on by the higher entities here.

Al

 

[Bruce B]

Talking about the aesthetics of the new Krell and Bully Sound electronics, I think the dumbest idea I've seen is placing a diamond on the front of a cartridge.....

 

[Alrainbow]

.??

 

[Andre Marc]

I am afraid you're right. Recently we had a thread where people were asked how accurately their system could reproduce a live performance, and quite a few answered 95 or even 100 % (the latter meaning, "I can accurately reproduce any musical performance"):

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12155-How-close-are-you-to-the-finish-line

This was rather shocking, since anyone actually attending live concerts of un-amplified music knows that the differences with ANY system are huge. This enforced the opinion of some of us that many audiophiles really have no clue about live music, and only come to their conclusions about how good their systems are by comparing them with other systems rather than with the real thing.



...and if someone mentions "Jazz at the Pawnshop" again, I will get revulsions.



Indeed. CD is where all the music is. Anyone pretending that hi-rez, with its measly musical choices, can substitute for that, appears to not listen to a great variety of music. Which again, would be typical audiophile behavior, as you stated. I would think a music lover tries to get the best out of CD because that's where all the music is, only an audiophile who listens to two dozen digital hi-rez recordings over and over again can afford to trash CD. But obviously, some people here will vehemently disagree with me, and I would not expect otherwise. In fact, I am already ducking for cover.

Al, I believe we are on the same page...big time.

 

[Andre Marc]

I don't care about the 3k system as that doesn't drive the high end imo. if the audio industry has shrunk by 50% over the past decade with an even more abundant lot of budget gear these days, then clearly it doesn't matter.

Very short sighted. This is an aspirational hobby. Folks start out with 3K systems then move up when circumstances allow. As I did. Nobody walks in the door
and buys a 50K set up as their first system.

The hobby has not shrunk because of lower priced, better performing gear, it has shrunk due to snobbishness.

 

[rockitman]

Talking about the aesthetics of the new Krell and Bully Sound electronics, I think the dumbest idea I've seen is placing a diamond on the front of a cartridge.....

The diamond improves the goldfinger's sound....

 

[audioarcher]

Talking about the aesthetics of the new Krell and Bully Sound electronics, I think the dumbest idea I've seen is placing a diamond on the front of a cartridge.....

Gold and diamonds go together right?