Measuring power line noise with the TriField EM100, and the impressive effect of Shyunyata products

[ack]

Meantime, more experiments that show:

1) The 12V transformers are responsible for the vast majority of the noise
2) Latest generation Lutron dimmers are not really the problem
3) My old dimmer is slightly noisier than a new one I bought (MACL-153MH-WH LED+ again) - both Lutron - and the new one appears to be better

Old Dimmer - LIGHTS ON:


New Dimmer - LIGHTS ON:


No Dimmer, Rocker Switch - LIGHTS ON:


The new dimmer appears to actually attenuate some noise over the rocker switch

 

[ack]

Here are more interesting experiments:

Two outlets on the same circuit, Lights OFF:

1) the one of the right, used by the audio equipment, going to an MIT distribution box with noise filtering using a Shunyata NR cord - VERY low noise. This is NOT the outlet where the Denali is plugged in, the Denali uses another outlet further out to the right and is not seen

2) the other one to the left - with an LED-lit cover - very HIGH noise, and I also removed that illuminated cover as well (third picture below)

My logical conclusion is that the NR cord + MIT box are actually working really well *at the source* as well, i.e. the wall outlet itself - in fact, Shunyata has a video where they show the exact same thing on their site


Right Audio Outlet, Feeds MIT with NR cord - Lights OFF - QUIET



Left Common Outlet - Lights OFF - NOISY


Left Common Outlet - Lights OFF, LED Cover REMOVED - NOISY

 

[marty]

Here is another concept to consider. That Denali probably has a very good ground. Sunyata spent a lot of time optimizing it for premium performance. That ground is connected via a power cord to a wall plug. If that wall plug ground is not optimized , you end up negating a huge portion of the Denali's potential performance. And don't think a ground is a ground. There absolutely are right and wrong ways to ground for precision amplifying equipment. Wrong may still be code legal, but it introduces unwanted issues and it fails to perform its job well.

Same with power. Why let damaging to your electrical infrastructure issue go unresolved. What good does that do. Nothing. You want that TriField reading little to no noise at the receptacle at the wall. You want to NOT need a Denali. And without addressing these issues, the Denali can't even work as intended.

I might go so far to say its even more important you address the backbone of your electrical power before ever spending money on a conditioner. If you don't, its a cascade of mediocre performance throughout your audio power supply. You can't buy your way out of it with components. Not unless you have a battery based supply, and even those have a ground bond back to the main service.so you still loose.

Damn, I presume it's hard to hire you in NJ when you are in Seattle. Do you know of any competent folks who do this out my way? Most electricians I've had think that if your refrigerator works, you're good to go. How do you hire ones with the right skill set for a electrical infrastructure analysis like this?

 

[ack]

I've had some very interesting discoveries with this device...

1) Noise generators seem to affect nearby outlets, not those at a distance; this *might* jive with what Kingrex said about grounds, thinking that eventually noise is shunted to ground after some distance, depending on the wiring and ground configurations. This is a very interesting observation. What I also gather out of this is that, perhaps, the best grounding solution for an audio system might be to use just a couple of outlets as I do, but also give them a dedicated and direct path to earth ground (hard to do without tearing down walls)

Case in point: 12V transformers near the audio system as shown in previous posts; the desktop computer and nearby outlets but not the audio system far away; the wifi devices (router, repeater) but nothing else further away; but less so the APC battery backups which host the wifi devices; etc.

2) Dimmable 12V halogen or LED, as well as dimmable 120V lights are major noise generators - not good at all

3) The Denali v2 and NR power cords keep noise to the audio system to a bare minimum, even with everything else turned on - *that* is their real value. Listening over the last 6-9 months has confirmed that the system's performance is steady no matter what

4) The Shunyata Defender is an interesting but perplexing device; it did nothing just about anywhere as I wrote earlier... save for one outlet pair, where it clearly attenuated noise by some 20%; and that outlet pair was in a bathroom. I cannot explain this right now. It certainly doesn't seem to be doing anything in my audio system

5) Quite clearly, running all main audio components through the Denali and all ancillaries (like the speakers, tape decks etc) through an MIT distribution box renders the best results, as opposed to running anything directly to the wall outlets

6) In the end, one cannot avoid the inherent noise in the incoming power line to the house, one cannot avoid all the noise-generating devices in the house, and the only defense is proper grounding of the audio system and the defense of proper power conditioning like the Shunyata

7) All of the above does make me think that I should be buying MORE, not fewer, Shunyata power conditioners to plug in as many noise-generating devices, like one for the computer, one for the wifi devices, one for the video system, etc... a rather crazy and expensive idea

 

[AndrewChen]

I used this same device to measure noise, and a line tester to measure instantaneous current capacity (using the IDEAL INDUSTRIES INC. 61-164 SureTest Circuit Analyzer):
...

Bottom line, the Shunyata setup would seem to do what it claims: reduce noise while providing formidable current capacity.

Thanks! Thats quite interesting.

According to the SureTest’s Manual, the ASCC is actually “calculated by dividing the line voltage by the circuit line impedance (hot + neutral)”. So, it’s not actually measuring the instantaneous current flow.

That would suggest that while the Shunyata presents a significantly lower AC impedance compared to without the Shunyata, it doesn’t really say anything about actual current flow though? The Shunyata can only deliver higher [instantenous] current than the raw AC output if it has significant power storage capacity, does it?

 

[ack]

if it has significant power storage capacity, does it?

Therein lies the rub. We think it is those QR/BB devices in there that render that effect.

 

[ack]

And more fun experiments, showing that the vast majority of the noise is coming from all 12V and 120V dimmable LED & halogen fixtures. Clearly, when all electronic lighting and devices are turned on, the noise is too much. The solution would be to turn all lights off, or try to find non-noisy dimmable 12V transformers and 120V LED lights - too bad analog dimmable lights are so hard to find anymore

Denali Outlet LOWEST Reading - All lights & electronic devices but the internet turned OFF



Denali Outlet HIGHEST Reading - All lights & electronic devices & internet turned ON




Regular Outlet HIGHEST Reading - All lights & electronic devices & internet turned ON

 

[Solypsa]

7) All of the above does make me think that I should be buying MORE, not fewer, Shunyata power conditioners to plug in as many noise-generating devices, like one for the computer, one for the wifi devices, one for the video system, etc... a rather crazy and expensive idea

For *non audio* devices are there not cheaper industrial solutions to block/isolate/attenuate noise? @Kingrex alluded to such. Seems to me the order of events should / could be:

1) inspect and address basic house electrical system ( grounding, panel, breakers etc ) if possible ( ie if home is owned, not a high rise building ... )

2) block/attenuate noise makers ( fridge, various compressors and motors, dimmers ) with industrial solutions as possible.

3) optimise audio circuit branch as you see fit.

4) add power products as needed.

I see many posts going at this in the reverse order. Maybe there is a reason?

 

[VLS]

Thanks! Thats quite interesting.

According to the SureTest’s Manual, the ASCC is actually “calculated by dividing the line voltage by the circuit line impedance (hot + neutral)”. So, it’s not actually measuring the instantaneous current flow.

That would suggest that while the Shunyata presents a significantly lower AC impedance compared to without the Shunyata, it doesn’t really say anything about actual current flow though? The Shunyata can only delivery higher current than the raw AC output if it has significant power storage capacity, does it?

Maybe the additional measurements in the table below will clarify this:

1) I get the highest estimated current delivery with a Sigma NR power cord connected directly to the dedicated AC line, suggesting the high capacity is due to the line itself, and the fact the Shunyata power cord doesn't reduce it very much (755 amps) compared to the basic black cord (487 amps).

The addition of the Denali's noise filtering plus an additional PC reduces the current capacity some but not too much (668 amps). Hard to say what role QRBB has in this - maybe it plays a part in ensuring that the current capacity reduction is not very big.

2) But yes, the ASCC is only an estimate vs. a direct measurement of current flow. I have no reason to doubt its validity (this device is after all not made by Shunyata to promote its products ).

Nonetheless, it's possible to get an independent confirmation of the current capacity by measuring the voltage drop under an actual current-draw load. The SureTest measures this by putting a real load on the circuit. The numbers in the table below show ~ 36% lower voltage drop with Shunyata PCs and Denali vs. basic cord (a 4.1% vs. 3% drop), which, FWIW, is approximately the same percentage difference between the two ASCC numbers (668 vs. 487). And this is all vastly better than the regular outlet with a basic cord (7.6%, 265A).

Location	Power Cord	% V-drop @ 20A	Noise mVp-p	Peak amps (ASCC1)
Standard outlet (15 ft from breaker box)	Basic black cord	7.6	500	265
10 AWG dedicated line (15 ft from breaker box)	Basic black cord	4.1	200	487
	Shunyata Sigma NR			755
	Shunyata Sigma XC + Denali v2 + Shunyata Sigma NR	3	50	668

 

[Kingrex]

Do you recommend to install additional ground rod in the garden? I read Bill Whitlock’s PowerPoint. It seems that he thinks it is unnecessarily.

You need to measure your ground to know how well it performs. And measure it in the dryest period of the year.
And I really can't explain why, but 2 are better than one. And I have been told the type of ground ufer, rod, plate, burried wire will react different depending on what noise is in the system.

 

[Kingrex]

No question about the importance of a good ground, but I don't understand how even a perfect ground would protect against ambient RFI / EMI - and other appliances on the grid - inducing noise into the typically unshielded hot AC conductor.

I suspect the Denali would be needed to address that. Further, it purports to filter inter-component noise as well - again, something that I don't think a perfect ground can fix. But I may be missing something...

A ground does more than take lightning to ground. Done right it will drain RF. When you ground correctly a very tangible calm comes over the room.

 

[Kingrex]

For *non audio* devices are there not cheaper industrial solutions to block/isolate/attenuate noise? @Kingrex alluded to such. Seems to me the order of events should / could be:

1) inspect and address basic house electrical system ( grounding, panel, breakers etc ) if possible ( ie if home is owned, not a high rise building ... )

2) block/attenuate noise makers ( fridge, various compressors and motors, dimmers ) with industrial solutions as possible.

3) optimise audio circuit branch as you see fit.

4) add power products as needed.

I see many posts going at this in the reverse order. Maybe there is a reason?

Exactly

 

[ack]

Lowest regular outlet noise reading this morning, before folks wake up, ALL Major Appliances ON, lights OFF, digital audio ON, pointing to a quiter incoming line, and re-affirming that the dimmable lights are the real problem. But the Denali...???


LOWEST Regular Outlet Reading - Fridge/AC/Dryer/Washer/Microwave ON, All Lights OFF, Digital Audio ON


Denali Outlet Reading - Fridge/AC/Dryer/Washer/Microwave ON, All Lights OFF, All Digital Audio OFF


This could be the analog preamp and phono feeding back noise, not sure...

The moment the dimmable lights were turned on, readings went back to over 1000mVp-p in the regular outlet

 

[VLS]

Lowest regular outlet noise reading this morning, before folks wake up, ALL Major Appliances ON, lights OFF, digital audio ON, pointing to a quiter incoming line, and re-affirming that the dimmable lights are the real problem. But the Denali...???


LOWEST Regular Outlet Reading - Fridge/AC/Dryer/Washer/Microwave ON, All Lights OFF, Digital Audio ON
View attachment 78545

Denali Outlet Reading - Fridge/AC/Dryer/Washer/Microwave ON, All Lights OFF, All Digital Audio OFF
View attachment 78546

This could be the analog preamp and phono feeding back noise, not sure...

The moment the dimmable lights were turned on, readings went back to over 1000mVp-p in the regular outlet

I was told (Vince G of MSB) that the way to properly measure noise on the output of a power conditioner is to unplug all components. Maybe wake up early again tomorrow (better you than me!) and try measuring both ways?

 

[ack]

I was told (Vince G of MSB) that the way to properly measure noise on the output of a power conditioner is to unplug all components. Maybe wake up early again tomorrow (better you than me!) and try measuring both ways?

I think he is slightly wrong - if I plug in all components, I will have no outlet to measure from. I am actually impressed by the quality of the incoming power line, night or day, and the fact that all major appliances are well behaved or their noise is shunted to ground before it reaches the audio equipment.

I need to figure out what to do about the lights... and again, a dedicated ground for the audio outlets will likely shunt all this noise to earth ground, but who wants to tear down walls

 

[Kingrex]

I've had some very interesting discoveries with this device...

1) Noise generators seem to affect nearby outlets, not those at a distance; this *might* jive with what Kingrex said about grounds, thinking that eventually noise is shunted to ground after some distance, depending on the wiring and ground configurations. This is a very interesting observation. What I also gather out of this is that, perhaps, the best grounding solution for an audio system might be to use just a couple of outlets as I do, but also give them a dedicated and direct path to earth ground (hard to do without tearing down walls)

Case in point: 12V transformers near the audio system as shown in previous posts; the desktop computer and nearby outlets but not the audio system far away; the wifi devices (router, repeater) but nothing else further away; but less so the APC battery backups which host the wifi devices; etc.

2) Dimmable 12V halogen or LED, as well as dimmable 120V lights are major noise generators - not good at all

3) The Denali v2 and NR power cords keep noise to the audio system to a bare minimum, even with everything else turned on - *that* is their real value. Listening over the last 6-9 months has confirmed that the system's performance is steady no matter what

4) The Shunyata Defender is an interesting but perplexing device; it did nothing just about anywhere as I wrote earlier... save for one outlet pair, where it clearly attenuated noise by some 20%; and that outlet pair was in a bathroom. I cannot explain this right now. It certainly doesn't seem to be doing anything in my audio system

5) Quite clearly, running all main audio components through the Denali and all ancillaries (like the speakers, tape decks etc) through an MIT distribution box renders the best results, as opposed to running anything directly to the wall outlets

6) In the end, one cannot avoid the inherent noise in the incoming power line to the house, one cannot avoid all the noise-generating devices in the house, and the only defense is proper grounding of the audio system and the defense of proper power conditioning like the Shunyata

7) All of the above does make me think that I should be buying MORE, not fewer, Shunyata power conditioners to plug in as many noise-generating devices, like one for the computer, one for the wifi devices, one for the video system, etc... a rather crazy and expensive idea

Most of the noise in your power is genereted in your home. You see that now. Some also comes from your neighbor. Little actually comes from the utility. Although an old utility transformer will leak voltage and cause issues.

And I agree that conductor between equipment makes a difference. The better systems I see have modems, routers, switches in another room on a dedicated circuit. The best systems keep the server and DAC on a circuit other than amps and preamps. And amps always get their own circuit. By your test you validate why I adamantly espouse multiple circuits. I do not like one circuit. Yea yea it eliminates ground loops. No it does not. It introduces components to components noise issues.

I would use a Denali more to stop my DAC and server from back polluting to my preamp and amps.

RF is a big issue. Thats the noise you don't know is there till its gone. When you rid it or route it away it becomes more calm, dynamic and subtle details emerge.
But does your power conditioner help. An 1/8" gap in a shield is a mile to an RF wave. What is the power cord from your conditioner to gear. And how well does the actual equipment you have shield RF.

I can do things you can't. Well, you could, but. I don't use receptacles any more. They all have insertion losses and lots of dissimilar metals and connection points. I bolt my power cords directly to my incoming branch circuits. One day I had a run in a steel pipe going to a new shielded power cable I had made. The box cover was off with the wire terminations sticking out. I sent a photo to friend. He made fun of my mess so I folded it up neat and closed the box. I immediatly heard a change. A lot of noise had gone away.

I'm only pointing out, hunting down noise and ridding it takes a lot of time and thought. I don't think there is any way to get rid of it all. But you can make the best of what your given. Just be carefull to not overfilter thinking that is a solution. I personally don't like the sound filters make. Its all personal. I find it hifi. To my ears. I'm a SET tube and horn type listener, so take my preference as just that.

 

[VLS]

I think he is slightly wrong - if I plug in all components, I will have no outlet to measure from. I am actually impressed by the quality of the incoming power line, night or day, and the fact that all major appliances are well behaved or their noise is shunted to ground before it reaches the audio equipment.

I need to figure out what to do about the lights... and again, a dedicated ground for the audio outlets will likely shunt all this noise to earth ground, but who wants to tear down walls

No - he advocates UN-plugging all components

 

[ack]

No - he advocates UN-plugging all components

Sorry I misread. But I also want to measure the way the system would operate. His approach won't account for that

 

[VLS]

Sorry I misread. But I also want to measure the way the system would operate. His approach won't account for that

That's why I suggested you compare the readings both without and with the audio components plugged in, at a time when the line noise is low. That will let you gauge how much noise is generated by your components vs. external sources.

 

[ack]

Do you have Ching Cheng power cord? Want to see how CC power cord fares.

As it turns out, the Pass XP-25 comes with a Ching Cheng, which I dug up and measured. As expected, it is slightly more noisy, picking up radiant EMI along its length, and we know this is not a shielded cord, which also means it radiates hum (also measured separately with a simple electrical device). Part of it may be the alligator wire as well. You would not expect this stuff to be anything worth more than what they sell for; this is a typical run-of-the-mill cord, and what I call high-end audio junk

Ching Cheng



Baseline Wall Outlet


Ching Cheng