Measuring power line noise with the TriField EM100, and the impressive effect of Shyunyata products

[ack]

... and here's how much the alligator wires themselves contribute to this noise pick up - negligible

Baseline - No Alligator Wires


Alligator Wires

 

[Kingsrule]

As it turns out, the Pass XP-25 comes with a Ching Cheng, which I dug up and measured. As expected, it is slightly more noisy, picking up radiant EMI along its length, and we know this is not a shielded cord, which also means it radiates hum (also measured separately with a simple electrical device). Part of it may be the alligator wire as well. You would not expect this stuff to be anything worth more than what they sell for; this is a typical run-of-the-mill cord, and what I call high-end audio junk

Ching Cheng
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View attachment 78560

Baseline Wall Outlet
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Ching Cheng
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FYI That's not the ddk CC cord......and do u really think u can hear 19.0 vs 23.4? I think not.....

 

[ack]

FYI That's not the ddk CC cord......and do u really think u can hear 19.0 vs 23.4? I think not.....

Yup, and I said none of that. Personally I care more about the fact the cords are not shielded and radiate hum than the noise they pick up; plus the quality of the copper and overall construction. These are what we call stock cords.

 

[Solypsa]

I am not sure if anyone is calling CC power cords 'high end'. They are the better of the 'stock cords'. That some are happy with them probably says more about their gear and possibly electrical infrastructure; as well as any CC absence of egregious colorations vs any superior contruction aspects.

Iirc this is the cord that Naim used with all their gear back in the day?

 

[ack]

I am not sure if anyone is calling CC power cords 'high end'.

Precisely, and we know why

 

[AndrewChen]

Therein lies the rub. We think it is those QR/BB devices in there that render that effect.

Good point.

There are two patents associated with Shunyata’s “QB/BB” technology - the US 10,031,536 one specifically explains how its storing charges for supply during instantaneous draw, so that explains the SureTest Analyzer's results.

There's an interesting caveat in the Patent: "Note should be made that the inventive circuit operates only in a power system where current is drawn in pulses. It has no advantageous effect in a system where current draw is linear across the entire AC waveform."

So, good for Power Amplifiers perhaps, but not so useful for frontends?

 

[ack]

"Note should be made that the inventive circuit operates only in a power system where current is drawn in pulses. It has no advantageous effect in a system where current draw is linear across the entire AC waveform."

So, good for Power Amplifiers perhaps, but not so useful for frontends?

Our analog power supplies are drawing current in pulses, at around the peaks (positive and negative) of the waveforms. He is probably excluding digital power supplies.

 

[Kingsrule]

Yup, and I said none of that. Personally I care more about the fact the cords are not shielded and radiate hum than the noise they pick up; plus the quality of the copper and overall construction. These are what we call stock cords.

Who's we?

 

[AndrewChen]

Our analog power supplies are drawing current in pulses, at around the peaks (positive and negative) of the waveforms. He is probably excluding digital power supplies.

Which component's analog power supply specifically do you mean? And how do you know this to be true if you don't mind my asking? (Other than it being mentioned on Shunyata’s write-ups).

 

[ack]

Which component's analog power supply specifically do you mean? And how do you know this to be true if you don't mind my asking? (Other than it being mentioned on Shunyata’s write-ups).

This is basic common analog power supply knowledge. This is also partly why there are associated capacitor banks. And I am referring to any component that would be using such analog power supplies

 

[ArnoFenn]

Great topic, something I have been looking forward to is to have more Shunyata measurement data. I would also be very curious what the RCL values are of a Denali/Everest unit. Eg. Input-output 1 line, resistive of inductive. Input between 2 lines, capacitance, Output shorted and measured RCL on inputs etc.

 

[ack]

Here's something equally disturbing... I bought the following EMI filter, highly recommended on amazon https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073MCGBP5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and notice the filter configuration. Well, at the filter's output, the noise is actually fairly higher:

SEE SUBSEQUENT CORRECTED POST - THE FILTER ACTUALLY WORKS TO A CERTAIN DEGREE




and I used the following ground plug to provide proper ground:

 

[ArnoFenn]

The filter might be functional outside the range of the meter. Also there should be an actual load connected to the output (the meter is rather a high impedance)

 

[ArnoFenn]

Would you also have a multimeter with a R, C and/or L measurement option?

 

[ack]

The filter might be functional outside the range of the meter. Also there should be an actual load connected to the output (the meter is rather a high impedance)

Good point - let me repeat

Would you also have a multimeter with a R, C and/or L measurement option?

Yes, but not needed, here are the values of the filter from another manufacturer (and there are a few more with the same exact execution)

 

[ArnoFenn]

Was more thinking of RCL measurements on the Shunyata ;-)

 

[ack]

Was more thinking of RCL measurements on the Shunyata ;-)

There are no capacitors or coils in the Shunyata, but I will see what I can do. Meantime, using a 12V electronic transformer as load to the EMI-reducing device confirms that, YES there is a drop in noise, and the more current I draw (by turning up the lights) the lower the noise floor, but not very significant either: 348.1 mVp-p down to 332.8. I am going to edit my previous post and strikethrough what I said and correct it.

Baseline:


With load:

 

[ArnoFenn]

Even when there are no actual inductors or capaictors in the Shunyata...there can still be inductance and/or capacitance/resistance ;-)

 

[AndrewChen]

This is basic common analog power supply knowledge. This is also partly why there are associated capacitor banks. And I am referring to any component that would be using such analog power supplies

IIRC from Engineering classes, within normal power supplies, the smoothing capacitors banks post-rectification have a current flow thats “pulsed” in nature due to their charge/discharge cycles (“ripple current”), and these get smoothed out with additional capacitors post power supply. However, I don’t believe that necessarily equates to the component as a whole drawing current from the mains in pulses.

So, is it really common knowledge? If so, do you have links pointing to such details? It sure seem like Shunyata are the only ones talking about this.

 

[ack]

However, I don’t believe that necessarily equates to the component as a whole drawing current from the mains in pulses.

I don’t think anyone said the whole component draws current in pulses. We said the analog power supply of the component does, and then Shunyata claim they can improve the instantaneous current delivery as discussed in the patent, because their products interact with said power supplies. Any arguing should be done with them not anyone else. However, measurements posted do show such behavior. If you think otherwise, or that the measuring device does not represent a real analog power supply, so be it.