Measuring power line noise with the TriField EM100, and the impressive effect of Shyunyata products

[Kingrex]

Hi Kingrex
Can u recommend a speed controller similar to the MA 1000 for ceiling fans?
Right now I can hear the motor pulse at low speeds. Using a Lutron Homeworks light switch dimmer to control the fan speed

Thank u

I have not tested speed controllers, but your comment indicates you are using a dimmer to control a fan. They are different technology. You need an actual speed controller.

I am talking with my panel manufacturer about filters specific to lights and motors that I would install at your service panel. Even though a Denali may provide significant improvement in some systems, I have also witnessed a properly implemented highly optimized power supply done right from grounds and service point, through the main panel, subpanel and to the rack negate the gains of a Denali.

I still find it a very backwards process to buy a Denali or Everest or any other unit, rather than focus on point source solutions, mitigating the negative impact at the offending device.

Long answer, your on the right path looking for a good speed controller. I will call some reps this weekend and see if any know of such a device. Unfortunately business has been so booming, and the race to the bottom so intense, quality is thrown out. Only price and speed of delivery are factored into production.

I can have robust industrial filters manufactured that would be installed at your panelboard. You would nipple it to your panel and route offending circuits through the filter. But a good speed controller should solve your issue.

 

[1audio]

Before anyone gets too excited about the measured results noted with the cheap AlphaLab (or rebadged TriField 100 meter), consider what my electrical consultant told me about it (as some of you know the installation of a transfer switch for an aux generator completely messed up my electricity due to grounding and other issues and I'm in the midst of a complete from the roof re-do of the power entering my home, which is the place to start, NOT at the wall sockets!) :

"this AC noise meter is a rebadged Alpha Labs. Cheap, inaccurate, covers less than 4 octaves of only one of three induced-noise modes. It’s ten-cent switching supply adds nearly as much noise as it often detects… Doing this for real starts at about $8000 for a portable meter, but this will be OK for the single purpose I described above. These can’t be used for judging AC power products, to poorly executed and not stable with varying AC impedance. The old Audio Prism Noise Sniffers were actually quite a bit better than these (and about 4 times the cost). Those are long gone though."

Alpha Labs and Trifield are the same company. And they have been making the same type of instrument for years. It started with the old Entech meter (a modified Trifield originally) custom built for Monster. The Audio Prism was a rebadged baby noise monitor.

Its true that you don't get a lot of insight into the noise from the meter. ideally you need a spectrum analyzer and an interface to connect safely to the powerline. Then you can see more about what is contributing noise and how effective your noise mitigation efforts are. Its always best to control noise at its source. Most modern appliances are pretty good since they need to meet international EMI standards. If you want quiet lighting (assuming the light sources are generating noise that is getting into your audio) you need incandescent lamps (pure resistive loads) and variac type dimmers (not made for a very long time). Fluorescent lamps with electronic ballasts can be quite noisy but newer ones should be OK. LED's run from a linear DC supply should be pretty quiet.

Years ago at a CES I demonstrated the peak charging current of a stack of high powered amps at turn on. It was 115A for one cycle. and dropped very quickly. This cycled repeatedly every few minutes. The relay survived the duration of the show (amazing). I have never seen an amp draw anything like that in normal operation, just turn on. One version of the ideal tester has a current probe you could use to measure the harmonic current and the peak current. it would be interesting to see if any of the power filters affect the peak current in operation.

 

[VLS]

This is an interesting thread. It’s clear there are measured differences, and the Shunyata devices decrease (presumably) HF noise. What’s not clear to me is what impact this has on audible results? The measured noise varies quite a bit under the different circumstances. The p-p voltage varies much more than the noise, but no mention of that is made. Again, I think this is really interesting—just trying to piece together the impact.

No doubt the effect will depend on the quality of your AC but more importantly on how your components handle such noise. In my case the impact is easily audible and wholly positive for both my DAC and amplifier. The difference between the amp being plugged into its own dedicated line vs . the Denali is particularly striking: the unfiltered AC produces a mid-band bloat, which, while superficially euphonic and pleasing on some overly lean recordings, clearly clobbers transparency. The Denali wipes away this grunge, and in my case does so without reducing speed, dynamics or bass even a smidgen. Your results may vary, but ack has seen a similar effect in a very different system.

 

[ack]

The difference between the amp being plugged into its own dedicated line vs . the Denali is particularly striking: the unfiltered AC produces a mid-band bloat, which, while superficially euphonic and pleasing on some overly lean recordings, clearly clobbers transparency. The Denali wipes away this grunge, and in my case does so without reducing speed, dynamics or bass even a smidgen. Your results may vary, but ack has seen a similar effect in a very different system.

The underlined is effectively what I also pointed out to our Steve Williams in that pointless Natural Sound thread. The bold typeface is key to what we both hear.

All in all, this thread is all about quantifying power-line noise from a layman's [and a true Demian-Martin-fan's] point of view, raising awareness, and a possible approach to remediation, considering that the sonic benefits were established for me well over 6 months ago.

 

[BlueFox]

First of all, thanks to @VLS for introducing me to to the TriField EM100
https://www.alphalabinc.com/product/plm/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B083PZ7JR3/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This tool measures line noise as mV peak-to-peak and the results are interesting, especially when compared to what's coming out of the Shunyata Denali 6000/S v2 outlets and associated power cords:

1) My dimmable 12V lights are feeding significant noise into the line
2) My microwave has extremely small impact
3) The electric oven has no impact
4) The Denali v2 is a super-star
5) The Shunyata Defender has no effect
6) The Shunyata Venom XC cords (non-noise reducing) still reduce noise further a little bit, by virtue of construction
7) The Shunyata Venom NR (noise-reducing) cords further reduce noise quite a bit
8) The Denali's CCI (component-to-component) isolation actually works as advertised: Feeding two DACs with NR cords from the same Denali outlet with a splitter ends up increasing the noise out of either cord as opposed to any other NR cord coming out of the Denali, so the DACs are feeding noise back into the line, picked up by the other

Here are the measurements:

ack, my apologies if you mentioned this later, but is your stereo (Shunyata gear) on dedicated lines going back to the panel, or does the stereo share lines also used by other items in the house?

 

[wil]

Here's how alphalab describes the unit's operation:



One would get a more accurate picture with a Fluke, but at $3000+ ??

What is more interesting to me is the relative readings as various devices are turned on and off, and as one goes from outlet to outlet

One thing to keep in mind is you can rent fluke clamp meters of various models. I used a Fluke 345 to measure the Power Factor and Harmonic Distortion on my dedicated 6 ag audio line both at the main panel and at the outlet which feeds my Sound Application power distributor.

 

[ack]

ack, my apologies if you mentioned this later, but is your stereo (Shunyata gear) on dedicated lines going back to the panel, or does the stereo share lines also used by other items in the house?

Shared. Nothing dedicated in here, yet

 

[ACHiPo]

No doubt the effect will depend on the quality of your AC but more importantly on how your components handle such noise. In my case the impact is easily audible and wholly positive for both my DAC and amplifier. The difference between the amp being plugged into its own dedicated line vs . the Denali is particularly striking: the unfiltered AC produces a mid-band bloat, which, while superficially euphonic and pleasing on some overly lean recordings, clearly clobbers transparency. The Denali wipes away this grunge, and in my case does so without reducing speed, dynamics or bass even a smidgen. Your results may vary, but ack has seen a similar effect in a very different system.

Interesting. Do you plug the front end and amps in the same Denali? I’d need to have two based on my layout. Gets expensive.

 

[rbbert]

Sorry, also late to the thread and I had a question similar to BlueFox's, which is how far apart the audio circuits (dedicated lines) are from lights and kitchen components at the panel, and if there is a separate subpanel (e.g., 30-40 ft from the main panel) for the audio is there significant pollution from lights, refrigerators, dimmers, etc.

Post #77 mentions 120V dimmable LED's; is there such a thing?

 

[Kingrex]

Arthur Kelm explores the definition of clean power,

Keeping voltage distortion, current harmonic, normal mode noise and common mode noise to a minimum in a power distribution system, is ABSOLUTELY necessary for reliable operation.

www.toruspower.com

This is one of the people I have spoken with about designing systems. Art validated what I adhere to in designing a system. He uses Torus transformers. Premium select models. It is a different way to approach mitigating noise at the audio rack than a Denali. But the white paper makes clear you want to get rid of as much noise at the source as you can.

 

[K3RMIT]

dimmers and bulbs can cause line noise , but also RFI . to test for RFI is very difficult , EMI from componants nearby is also possible . A celing fan on a speed control i would think is a mixed bag of possible issues . i do think varying line noise and its effects go back to the maker period . there are plenty of simple methods one can use to stop most of this . but i also understand any maker has many ideals to produce a great product . does anyone here have 220 volt devices ? in some ways the fair better at creating a lower noise floor i feel .

 

[VLS]

Interesting. Do you plug the front end and amps in the same Denali? I’d need to have two based on my layout. Gets expensive.

Yes, both are plugged into the same Denali. You could start with one and see where it helps most- as I said, a lot probably depends on your particular equipment and situation.

 

[Kingsrule]

Kingrex

Thanks for checking into the fan controller....looking forward to your recommendations

 

[ack]

@Kingrex One of my 12V lights with a noisy transformer and on a rocker siwtch is close to a window, and I can run a ground wire from its white wire (bought 30ft last night) through the window and into the ground, and the soil is still very wet after 3 days of constant rain. The goal is to see if an earlier path to earth ground from a noisy device will end up shunting some of the noise to earth ground and away from surrounding outlets. Do you see any danger or other issues with this experiment?

 

[ack]

and speaking of noise and grounds, I am a little perplexed by the following:

1) Measuring a set of noisy 12V halogen lights in the kitchen, right at the same location and next to their rocker switch - noise goes up a bit
2) Measuring the same lights and noise at one of the audio wall outlets, noise goes WAY UP

Does this mean the rocker switch and outlet next to it have a better or earlier path to ground than the other audio wall outlet? How might this all be explained?


Kitchen outlet/rocker switch, Lights OFF:


Kitchen outlet/rocker switch, Lights ON:



Audio outlet behind same wall, Lights OFF:



Audio outlet behind same wall, Lights ON:

 

[1audio]

I suspect there is a line noise filter (small cap) near the low noise outlet. However resonances in the power network could be amplifying the noise. The connection to earth/ground will have little effect on the noise (except when its helping the antenna properties of the wiring). Romex is pretty lossy above 30 MHz but plenty good below. Every mismatch or connection in the cabling (junction box or breaker box) is a place where the transients can radiate from the wiring. Steel conduit is the best for controlling radiation and noise but not used much in residential construction.

You can have issues with separate power runs from the main panel for amps vs the other electronics. Biggest problem if they are on different phases ,that would mean 240V between hot leads and lots of potential leakage. Second largest is if the chassis grounds are different returns and develop a voltage drop, another source of potential leakage and hum+noise. The ground return even with no current can develop a voltage from its close proximity to the power conductors. If its not perfectly equidistant to them so the mag fields cancel you get a 1 turn transformer. This is a real problem in a surge event since all three conductors will have a lot of voltage on them. And also for broadband noise coupling.

 

[ack]

Interesting comments, thanks Demian

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

Ack, your TRIFIELD findings are quite interesting and somewhat match to my ears much of what goes on with Shunyata Denali v2s an the NR mains cabling. I don’t begin to understand it, but it sounds wonderful. As I added each cable the music presented more clearly and deliberate. As I added the first Denali v2 between the mains and the front-end gear there was a marked sense of ease in the overall delivery, but when I added the second Denali v2 at the front-end on the OTL mono blocks and the field-coil power supplies, it created a huge jump in the soundstage depth, the presence of being at the performance became more vivid, and the dynamics both large and small came out to play most brilliantly. The effect was near psychedelic like in its presentation and scope. Music was coming from all over the room, well outside the speaker cabinets, yet images remained stable. Truly a remarkable experience. I’ve never heard anything like it. I realize what this sounds like… audiophile hyperbole, but I just feel the need to share on what we are hearing.

 

[ack]

Ack, your TRIFIELD findings are quite interesting and somewhat match to my ears much of what goes on with Shunyata Denali v2s an the NR mains cabling. I don’t begin to understand it, but it sounds wonderful. As I added each cable the music presented more clearly and deliberate. As I added the first Denali v2 between the mains and the front-end gear there was a marked sense of ease in the overall delivery, but when I added the second Denali v2 at the front-end on the OTL mono blocks and the field-coil power supplies, it created a huge jump in the soundstage depth, the presence of being at the performance became more vivid, and the dynamics both large and small came out to play most brilliantly. The effect was near psychedelic like in its presentation and scope. Music was coming from all over the room, well outside the speaker cabinets, yet images remained stable. Truly a remarkable experience. I’ve never heard anything like it. I realize what this sounds like… audiophile hyperbole, but I just feel the need to share on what we are hearing.

Yes and thank you for sharing. A second Denali v2 is something that I am giving some thoughts as well. One important aspect here is that all of the power cords are shielded so well that there is no interference with the interconnects and especially the phono. I do have a complex maze of interconnects and power cords and I have lost count, but probably around 50 altogether.

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

I have heard Shunyata is working on a replacement(?) piece for the utility that the 2000t provided, but of course with the latest Denali tech. This was after I had already purchased the second Denali v2. No regrets as I need four, maybe six outlets on the front end anyway. Though it will be interesting to see what they come up with.